Carbon Fiber and a mag...(design discussion)

[gus13]

my problem is that I have the image but I can't really explain it the way I'd like to. I'm thinking it may help lighten it up a bit but not much- after that its mostly just aesthetics.

[b2k2]

Just to touch on what Skoad said, CF is hard to get. From what I have been told the shortage is from airline industries/Military buying it all up. The stuff with the colored kevlar woven in is even harder to find, I guess the military is using kevlar for something .
I am playing with some stuff for warp feeds and halos but here are some things to consider when making stuff out of CF (they may be comon sense to some but I started with 0 zip nil exp so it is what I learned, in some cases, the hard way):

If you decide to grind it be very careful it can kill you, invest in a good mask.
Don't use the CF untill you are sure you have the process down, use fiberglass.
(side note you can find "scraps" of fiberglass cloth on ebay for very cheap. sometimes boat builders have scraps that are too small fo boat parts but plenty big for paintball parts)
CF doesn't like to curve and bend (the battery door on a halo was a nightmare) so if you have something that is "bendy" use a negtive mold and a plug.
The clear resen is very expensive, and a lot of brick and mortar stores don't carry it. you have to order it and end up paying mucho dineros because it is hazardous (don't drink it by the way)
The resen doesn't stick to things like vinyl, wax, and silcon......
Even though I have said it before, if you grind it, be very very careful because it can kill you. It is like sucking in a bunch of little daggers, they cut those things in your lungs that put the oxygen into your blood, then they scar and don't work. It is bad.

And yes I think a CF gun would be cool, in concept. I would imagine they would cost an arm and a leg though. If you, or any one, has any questions about making stuff with CF PM me. I am by no means an expert but I may be able to help or share with you what worked for me.

PS if you are trying to make a vacum form, don't do it in your wife's oven, cause if you do it wrong and start a smokey somkey fire you will get to sleep on the couch,

[StygShore]

CF and the ULE....

My main question... have you seen how thin the ULE body is? How much weight reduction do you think you would actually get by replacing any of it with CF?

As far as the rail out of CF? Good luck even getting close to AGD tolerances that are required on this part. I had a factory rail that was warped, you couldnt see it witht he naked eye, the thing Never worked right until AGD figured out the problem.


Best bet - Mill the frame, the rail, and get the RPG body, but be careful if you feel the need to go gun first into a bunker or anything, becasue you are likely to make your own non working Z-grip


Styg

[gus13]

I wasn't suggesting the rail be CF SR Matt was saying a friend of his was thinking about making some "non-metal" rail which I don't really get.
Once again People this is a "what if? and if so how?" type deal I am not ACTUALLY going to do this, it was just something that came to my mind this morning and was curious about everyone's input on this tyoe of design.

[Toll]

In my rather limited opinion, there aren't many things on a paintball marker I'd like to have made out of carbon fiber. The barrels are obviously there, but I wouldn't mind seeing a hopper made out of CF purely because my understanding is that it's relatively strong and will not break (Halo's and I don't like eachother) when struck by the ball/etc.

Personally I think it'd be neat to see a marker made out of CF (I heard of one made out of delrin and saw a pic...but no actual shooting) purely to see how light/etc it would be..as long as it wasnt me footing the bill ^^

[warbeak2099]

I think you could modify it where you have the internal body where the bolt is held aluminum a thinner sheet of it, and a deleron bolt. And then even a metal feedneck and threads, also metal barell threads. This is all just concepts. Nobody's talking about really making one yet. It is hard to explain in text so I can;t really show you what Im talking about.

Don! You are just brimming with technologically superb ideas! First you say that someone should hand make sluggos! Brilliant! And now we could make whole guns out of Carbon Fiber that would shatter under the required pressure! Don, I think you should be an engineer, you seriously have a handle over this stuff. Honestly, you should design paintball guns for AGD.

[SR_matt]

I wasn't suggesting the rail be CF SR Matt was saying a friend of his was thinking about making some "non-metal" rail which I don't really get.
Once again People this is a "what if? and if so how?" type deal I am not ACTUALLY going to do this, it was just something that came to my mind this morning and was curious about everyone's input on this tyoe of design.

from my understanding he was looking at differant polymers/plastics or composits. he also and talked about unusual metals but i havent heard any more lately on it.

there are plenty of things i think parts could be made from... hmm how about titanium, you could make the body thinner probably too (dont burst my bubble with the cost factor)
-matt

[iambored]

Oh I know lets make paintball guns out of Xeon Tetroxide! (Don't mark my spell spelling!) and wrap it in magnesium oxide! You'd have an uber light flameball gun! And then it wouldn't matter if anything broke! :rofl:
//Note that was sarcastic

[Chronobreak]

agd="we made titanium valves, but we didnt label them so we dont know where they are nor do the people who have them likely know what they are"

[gus13]

there are plenty of things i think parts could be made from... hmm how about titanium, you could make the body thinner probably too (dont burst my bubble with the cost factor)
-matt

consider it burst!
but aside from the cost factor that would be an interesting idea......go ahead and make one and let me know what you think!!

[VFX_Fenix]

agd="we made titanium valves, but we didnt label them so we dont know where they are nor do the people who have them likely know what they are"

I'd imagine they still have the s/n's for those valves laying around down at AGD. But... how about this.... We go back to the Good-Ol-Days and bust out with some Fiber Plastic iFrames, Y's, E/X-Mag frames and packs? As I recall it's lighter than Aluminum, plenty strong, and is relatively inexpensive.

But seriously though.

Titanium actually is about twice as dense as Aluminum (read: "Ti parts are heavier than Al parts of the same volume") so the only way you'll see a reduction of weight with Ti is by making the material thinner to such a degree that you've removed more than half the material pressent in the Aluminum counterparts.

CF as a building material is pretty good stuff. If they can make the fastest cars in the world out of the stuff then why not paintball gear? One of the fastest production street cars (Koenigsegg CCX) is made almost entirely out of the stuff. There are ways of making high tollerance CF parts and have them be durable enough to survive rough treatment.

I've seen people shoot this down many many times and I'm actually curious. Has anyone seen any really high quality CF parts? I mean, sure you can spend $600 on a CF hood for your car and have it end up with all kinds of fitment problems because the build quality is poor, but for JDM hoods I've yet to see or hear of one that didn't cost a few grand and didn't fit like the OEM hood.

Perhaps you can't make a CF body without certain considerations. Feed neck threads, barrel threads, and a bolt sleeve could all be put into a CF body. I believe the biggest problem with using CF as a practicle material is just in trying to make bolt-on replacement parts for a gun. If a platform were built from the start knowing that CF would be the principle material in construction I do believe that it can certainly be done, even if that platform happens to already have a real world counterpart such as the Automag. So, what exactly does all this mean? It just means that to utilize CF a unibody/rail would most likely be the best/safest option for those that really want it. Just make an X-Mag body out of CF and call it a day.

Just be ready to pay BIG $$$$$ for it. While not an expensive material, to build stuff, and build it correctly requires a lot of money. Karta costs will likely seem like chump change compaired to how much the CF counterpart will cost.

[VFX_Fenix]

Don! You are just brimming with technologically superb ideas! First you say that someone should hand make sluggos! Brilliant! And now we could make whole guns out of Carbon Fiber that would shatter under the required pressure! Don, I think you should be an engineer, you seriously have a handle over this stuff. Honestly, you should design paintball guns for AGD.

Actually, how is putting an aluminum sleeve inside the body to take the abuse of the bolt any different than putting the Steel ring inside a ULE body to take the abuse of the return spring?

Do you really think that a barrel made of CF can survive the forces placed uppon it by expanding gasses and an aluminum sleeve backed with CF can't handle a bolt passing through the middle of it? Honestly, if you can buid strut braces to take the abuse of a car that weighs thousands of pounds flexing a steel chassis made of CF, why not other things?

[Hexis]

What you don't see in cars is a CF engine. They make plenty of parts, just not parts with machine interactions.

[SR_matt]

consider it burst!
but aside from the cost factor that would be an interesting idea......go ahead and make one and let me know what you think!!

well give me 6 years, once my friend and i can get our metal shop up we both want to atleast do a few crazy things even if they are just for our selves (heck ill spend 2000 on a gun for my self if im making it just casue it would be made out of ti)... just have to get my metal craft BFA.. well and get in to the program .


-matt

[VFX_Fenix]

What you don't see in cars is a CF engine. They make plenty of parts, just not parts with machine interactions.

Well, there are many properties of CF which make it an extremely poor choice for engines and associated parts.

However many exotic cars and not-so-exotic cars do use CF as a structural building material. Why couldn't Aluminum backed with CF in high wear areas and threaded areas be used to build an entire gun? The strength of CF is accepted which is why it is used in many cases where strong, light, stiff parts are needed over Aluminum/Magnesium/Titanium/etc. Are those nay sayers out there trying to imply that the stress placed on the firing chamber of the Automag are greater than the stresses inflicted on parts in other applications?

Uses

Carbon fiber is most notably used to reinforce composite materials, particularly the class of materials known as carbon fiber reinforced plastics. This class of materials is used in aircraft parts, high-performance vehicles, sporting equipment, wind generator blades and gears and other demanding mechanical applications; a more thorough discussion of these uses, including composite lay-up techniques, can be found in the carbon fiber reinforced plastic article.

Non-polymer materials can also be used as the matrix for carbon fibres. Due to the formation of metal carbides (i.e., water-soluble AlC), bad wetting by some metals, and corrosion considerations, carbon has seen limited success in metal matrix composite applications; however, this can be improved by proper surface treatment, eg. for carbon-aluminium MMCs a vapor deposition of titanium boride on the fibers is often employed. Reinforced carbon-carbon (RCC) consists of carbon fiber-reinforced graphite, and is used structurally in high-temperature applications, such as the nose cone and leading edges of the space shuttle.

The fiber also finds use in filtration of high-temperature gases, as an electrode with high surface area and impeccable corrosion resistance, and as an anti-static component in high-performance clothing.

Some string instruments, such as violins and cellos, use carbon fiber reinforced composite bows. This is an alternative to the more common wooden bows. There are also several companies which make entire instruments, such as cellos, out of carbon fiber.

Many high-end frames for road bikes and mountain bikes are made of carbon fiber reinforced composite. Also, many road bikes made of aluminum have carbon fiber reinforced composite seat posts, handlebars and forks for reduced weight and improved rider comfort.

It is also widely used to enhance the look of automobiles and reduce weight. Many of the "tuner" style cars have carbon fiber hoods to reduce weight from a stock 28 lb hood to an 8 lb hood. Another use is in the increasingly popular hobby of RC cars, many high-end kits come with many carbon fiber parts due to their light weight and attractive appearance.

Carbon fiber is also used by skateboard companies to make strong lightweight skateboards for all types of skating, mainly downhill speedboarding. It is also used in many composite longboards to stiffen an otherwise very flexible board.

Carbon fiber is also used on racing yachts, rowing boats, kayaks and canoes, as well as on the paddles and oars used with them. Its use has allowed boat builders to produce stiffer and lighter boats. Carbon, along with other artificial fibers, has replaced more traditional laminated wooden or fiberglass constructions.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_Fiber

Automotive uses

CFRP is used extensively in automobile racing, especially in Formula One and Indycar racing. The high cost of carbon fiber is mitigated by the material's unsurpassed strength-to-weight ratio, and low weight is essential for high-performance automobile racing. Racecar manufacturers have also developed methods to give carbon fiber pieces strength in a certain direction, making it strong in a load-bearing direction, but weak in directions where little or no load would be placed on the member. Conversely, manufacturers developed omnidirectional carbon fiber weaves that apply strength in all directions. This type of carbon fiber assembly is most widely used in the "safety cell" monocoque chassis assembly of high-performance racecars.

Several supercars over the past few decades have incorporated CFRP extensively in their manufacture, using it for their monocoque chassis as well as other components. Examples include the Koenigsegg CCR, Koenigsegg CCX, McLaren F1, Bugatti Veyron, Bugatti EB110, Pagani Zonda, Enzo Ferrari and Porsche Carrera GT.

Until recently, the material has had limited use in mass-produced cars because of the expense involved in terms of materials, equipment, and the relatively limited pool of individuals with expertise in working with it. Recently, several mainstream vehicle manufacturers such as General Motors and BMW have started to use carbon fiber technology in everyday road cars.

Chevrolet is using carbon fiber in its flagship sports car, the Corvette. A special high performance version of the Corvette, dubbed the Z06, includes carbon fiber front bodywork for reduced weight and added rigidity.

BMW produces carbon fiber reinforced plastics in its Landshut plant. To make the roof of the BMW M3 CSL, for example, five layers of carbon fiber cloth are placed in an 1,800 ton press, where epoxy is resin transfer molded and heat-cured in a robot-automated process. The resulting roof is half the weight of an equivalent steel roof.

Use of the material has been more readily adopted by low-volume manufacturers like TVR who use it primarily for creating body-panels for some of their high-end cars due to its increased strength and decreased weight compared with the glass-reinforced plastic they use for the majority of their products.

Often street racers will purchase a CFRP hood, spoiler or body panel as an aftermarket part for their vehicle. It is common for these parts to remain unpainted to accentuate the look of the carbon fiber weave.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_...forced_plastic

Additional:

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/3

http://www.societyofrobots.com/mater...bonfiber.shtml