TK's opinions on the industry

[Ninjeff]

Ive been searching around for some interview with TK lately regarding his views on the current state of the industry. I see snippits here or there that he says, but i would be interested to have a good "sit down" talk with him and pick his brain about the industry and its future. Both as a buisness, and as a sport.
I know i'll never be able to sit down and do it, so i was hoping there was some type of archived interview you might know of.

[AGD]

Go ahead and ask and I will reply (although not with a book).

AGD

[viper-mayhem]

I have a question

Do you think that AGD has a future in this new ERA of markers? Either mechanical or electro?

[RogueFactor]

I will help out with what Tom has already said in the past...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2317542&postcount=121

All,

Now this has turned into an intelligent conversation. :)

What I believe to be at the core of this whole thing is whether or not the paintball industry should make and follow a plan, or leave it to a random walk. Its pretty easy to guess that I prefer the plan, ie ASTM, governing body for the tournaments etc. Now this has been attempted but never worked in paintball so you could easily say that its a hopeless cause.

Since there is a new crop of honchos in town there is another possibility that we could come to a Y in the road. Which direction we take is now in the hands of very few people. I would prefer that this group of decision makers had some experience in paintball but since they don't I am forced to see the negative side of things. Perhaps business acumen will overcome industry experience, only time will tell.

Our country in general has proceeded at the random walk and done remarkably well. But there are stand out examples of a plan really working well. like NASCAR. I spent a lot of personal time and effort along with people like Budd Orr and Jessica Sparks to get the heard moving in one direction. That never happened but for us old timers we still see this as our 'baby' and feel the emotions when things don't look right.

So forgive me if I have a sour view of the current situation, (its my right as a grumpy old man :)) Fireblade is right when he says its all of you who will determine the future of paintball not the past.

Its your world, do us proud.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2317101&postcount=116

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2259011&postcount=28

And who was it around here that was saying that things are not changing any different now than in the past?

With the sale of PMI and National, everyone who had a large part of this industry in the beginning is now gone. The people running the big companies like Brass Eagle and the new National/PMI don't know paintball, don't play paintball, don't know who you are and frankly don't care. They are beholding to the board of directors to make a return on their investment.

They made the investment not for the game, but for the profit potential. All the little guys got wiped out by the law suits and the lack of margin. The ones who were left sold out and now its just the biggest sharks who are left.

My personal opinion, right or wrong, is that the industry was too short sighted in coming together and making a rational decision on what it took to make paintball a long term stable industry. Wrap that up with thousands of kids screaming for more firepower and then letting them run rampant with it brought us down this inevitable road.

Collectively paintball has gotten what they asked for, a ferrari you can buy with your mom's credit card and a road to race it on where you can cut through side streets and claim you came in first.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2057958&postcount=91

Paintball has only one mountain to climb

Everyone knew what the mountain peak looked like and it had to do with shooting fast. The faster you shot the faster you climbed that darn mountain, the more respect you got and the more intense the game became. For better or worse the manufacturers (me included) gave you what you wanted. Now the peak is no longer in sight because everyone is standing on it. The 10 year old kid next to you got there because his mom bought him the electro-fantastic-of-the-month and bam he is there right next to you.

Now that the exclusivity is gone, and the climb (otherwise known getting some skills) is gone everyone is debating what to do next. Where we went wrong here is there was never an independent organizing body in paintball that kept it a "competitive sport". Looking at NASCAR they are changing the rules all the time to keep the playing field level. Sure the drivers HATE not having an advantage but you know what? it keeps the fans coming. Most other sports have catagories which you can compete in, stock, pro, modified etc. In our sport if you cheat enough they change the rules to let everyone do it.

I have been saying for a while that paintball has issues and now its apparent with an industry wide 30% drop in sales. Thats not my opinion, several HUGE manufacturers have told me that directly. Guys like Warped1 will look forward to a bright future but from my side I don't see it. Airsoft is taking off behind our backs while we look for new players.

I remember when the definintion of a pro paintball player was that he used technology LOWER than the typical gun on the field (12 gram days). If I was king of this industry I would point it back in that direction and sort the players out by skill instead of technopower.

As far as a pump resurgence, I am sure Mike is busy but you don't see any new manufacturers of pumps coming out and the guy doing the gold cockers went out of business.

Good luck to all of you, I hope the game turns out to be something you can enjoy.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1799990&postcount=68

Changing ASTM Rules

We were warned early on by people outside our industry that using the ASTM to created certain types of industry regulations was not a good idea. That's because once voted on, ASTM rules are very hard to change because they are based on safety.

It was recomended that we have an industry association publish guidelines so they could be updated and changed regularly. This makes a lot of sense but of course there have been many attempts to bring an association together but they all failed. I will leave it to your imagination to figure out why.

In order to logically change an ASTM rule you would have to show substantial changes in the safety margins in order to open up previously voted on rules. If the velocity had gone down, the distances gotten larger or the rate of fire dropped, then it could be reasonable to change old rules. If whole head protection was mandated or padding required this would also help.

As you can see none of the above have changed and in fact most have gotten worse. I highly doubt any lawyer would advise you that its ok to relax the rules at this point.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1608017&postcount=31

What you guys fail to comprehend is how the industry has changed dramatically in the last few years. Most companies NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE about what they develop. You have been used to the candy store of new developments and then you watched while lawsuits took over the industry. Some of you said something but most did NOT.

You continue to expect that things will be the same but in reality the old days of paintball are gone forever. The general paintball public hasn't put it all together yet. They dont understand that AKA is done making guns forever. That Odessey who brought you the best loader ever is now hovering at bankruptcy. WGP just gave up the whole upper end marrket in favor of a spider clone. Glen Palmer is going to retire to another country. Tippmann is now controlled by the functional equivalent of a superpower and the best Bob Long can do is come out with a new look every month.

Money, lawsuits and patents control what happens in the industry now. You all have pitifully little to do with who makes what products. I have the HAIR tigger completely designed, developed and ready to go. Legal issues and advise from my laywer is telling me not to do anything with it until the legal smog clears. Several people could own rights to that product. Since your not willing to pay 500 bucks per grip frame in multiple licensing fees everyone has to work it out ahead of time.

So go ahead and complain all you want, I am putting up bullet proof shields and waiting for the smoke to clear. We are currently working on something, reducing prices, thats something everyone likes.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

And another...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1509045&postcount=17

Well this is a big point of contention. Most pro eguns today go full auto when fired above a certain rate for a certain time. This is against industry agreed and voted on ASTM standards. Going against instustry standards opens the companies up to huge lawsuits. Since we are not in a position to take on huge lawsuits we dont produce this software and hence will never be conpetitive in the tournament world.

If you look at the ASTM votes you will find it really interesting on who was behind this and you have to ask the question why are they now making products that dont meet this standard.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

Here is one out of chronological order...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...5&postcount=79

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

[RogueFactor]

What would Tom shoot if not a mag? This was interesting...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...1&postcount=12

If I wasn't in the industry but know what I know now.....

I would shoot one of the earlier Angels. I know John Rice and I respect him as an engineer. They made the parts themselves and most were hand fit together ( the breaches were numbered). When your hand fitting parts someone is testing it to make sure it is right. The early cut and carved were great looking guns and the overall design was more elegant than the typical stacked tube. There was a shoot down problem but I could have fixed that.

For a mech I would want a gun I never had to mess with and didn't have to think about, so I would just shoot a Tippy with everyone else.

No other guns impress me at the gut level. The DM's came from the only gun design to be sold three times because of issues. Bob Long called me when he had gun problems. SP never designed anything and the Cockers were for tinkerers.

End of story.

AGD

[Chaos_Theory!]

Why not condense that down into as few posts as you can fit it all into. Ya really dont need a new reply for every quote.

[RogueFactor]

Why not condense that down into as few posts as you can fit it all into. Ya really dont need a new reply for every quote.

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer the way I did it though.

[Ninjeff]

Oh wow. Tom...man. I wasnt prepared for that reply. Lol.

Well, i suppose i was wondering a few things. Especially in regards to another thread on this forum, which has proven to become a hot-bed of debate. The thread got me thinking, especially, about the state of teh industry form a buisness perspective. I got to thinking about how much harder it is to survive than any of us "players" may realize. We ask ask and ask for more more more without regard to the fact that we can just quit, at anytime, without repercussions and remorse. We dont have thousands or millions sunk into the buisness of paintball.
After years and years AGD is still around. I am indeed astounded by how many people, both old and new "know" about the automag and its place in the sport. Yet, not too many people know, really know about the history of AGD. I myself, dont know that much. But what i do know is that AGD and, indeed, Tom Kaye (specifically) have had more impact on the sport than almost any other company short of a few. Tom Kaye's inventions have done more to shape the sport in more ways than we can realize. I think in the end its what makes me proud to own an AGD owners jersey, its what makes me proud to own a mag. Its the legacy of AGD that we take pride in.

So my questions are:
Whats the legacy you hope to leave behind, in regards to AGD? How do you see it fitting in 21st century paintball?

Why wont AGD pay Smart Parts for the rights to their "patent" in order to make what "SOME" believe to be more commercially viable markers? (im not one of those people)

Paintball has grown into a multi-national sport, played by millions of people in dozens of countries all around the globe. A multi-million dollar industry. A real breathing legit sport. yet, some how, most players feel like we (as a sport) are still struggling to be accepted. Why? And how would you change it? More to the point, what would it take for you to look at it as something you want to "create" for again?

there always seems to be alot of talk, every few months, about how "mags are dead" and so forth. And every time us loyal AGD-ers stride valiantly into battle to disspell any rumors of such nonsense. Its something not to be taken lightly. Surely, every other marker has their fans base and followers, but i have seen very very few companies with such a rabid and devoted fan base as AGD. I think its because, more than anything else, we are instilled with a sense of honor and history because we are mag fans. You dont buy an Automag because you saw it in some magazine, or video. You buy it because you know what your getting. Yet, at least for me, their is always an underlying dread that AGD will fade, slowly, into the night. And after awhile there with just be no more "genius" from the AGD camp.
ONe part of me desperately wants a new gun from AGD. The other part wonders how on earth you can possibly make something as revolutionary and mechanicly sound as the Automag.

Upon reading the other posts that rogue put up (thanks by the way) i noticed you tend to draw alot of comparisons between paintball, and Nascar. Its something i myself have discussed among friends. I used to think that paintball should follow examples set from the "big 3" of the sports industry whenever possible. (baseball, football, basketball) But teh more i think about it, teh more i realize that paintball has more in common with Nascar and racing than those other big 3. And i agree, Nascar would be a fine example to follow. And we, as a sport, could learn alot form the various racing factions in the world.
I also seem to get a bit of underlying "resentment" in some of your comments towards the industry. And, perhaps, rightfully so. That being said im sure you didnt get into the sport because you saw dollar signs. Everything about AGD's history tells me other wise. It seems like you got into the sport because you saw something you enjoyed, and wanted to be a part of.

And so i ask you this, (because i know your time is valuable i will be honest and say this is the question i really wanted to ask)

In total disregard to the industry side of things, as a player, a FAN of paintball, where do you see us. The collective players, right now? Lets forget, for a moment, that you know anything about the buisness end. Whats your opinion on the sport, as its played and handled by players? Where do YOU want to be?

-thanks in advance for answering any of these questions. heck, im sure i would sit for hours and hours picking your brain if given the chance. I know your time is valuable. And the simple fact that you make time for us means more to me, as a player and consumer than you could ever possibly know.

-jeff