TK's opinions on the industry

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Thanks for the suggestion. I prefer the way I did it though.

gosh, I wish there was a way to search for posts by user

[maglover728]

Listen to Tom. Pass on what Tom Says. RogueFactor may mean wel but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Take it straight from the man!

[AGD]

"In total disregard to the industry side of things, as a player, a FAN of paintball, where do you see us. The collective players, right now? Lets forget, for a moment, that you know anything about the buisness end. Whats your opinion on the sport, as its played and handled by players? Where do YOU want to be?"

Taking the industry out of it and just looking at the fan base, I think they are happy as usual and spending every dime they have to feed-the-need. There is no reason for players to be unhappy since they now have cheap full auto guns and paint at an all time low.

Really for the first time in paintball history, there are two fully developed roads to travel down, scenario and tournament. They are so different from each other they don't really overlap so you are not burdened with "looking bad" in front of the "other" players. You have a choice on how to play which can fit everyones skill level which is really nice.

The "sport" side of things (if you can call it that) with tournaments is clearly defined. Everyone knows what you have to do to win and that cheating goes on, so if you play that part of the game, you do so by choice and for the most part I think people love it.

I think there is an overall lack of product variety and innovation right now but again I think the player base is fine with that because only a few products hold that "top dog" status. If you buy a DM you are done in most people's minds. Fortunately for most players, you only need one status gun (unless you are Atach) to feel proud.

Where would I like to see it as a player? Personally I am the type of baller that enjoys planning and executing an attack. There is nothing more exciting than working with a team of guys in an UNPREDICTABLE situation that comes under dominant control because you planned, communicated and reacted. Some of you experienced a taste of this at the Pittsburg AO meet where our group moved through the woods as a unit. We came upon the enemy and I called for a 10 second blast on my mark. With my hand drop, the woods went from silent to a torrent of 30 guns blazing and then silent again. When a group moves as one large, thinking, AGGRESSIVE animal it sends a chill down your spine. Neither scenario or tournament offers this type of rush for me personally the way things are at the moment, so I an not as excited about playing as I used to be.

As you can see from my previous statements here that different ways to play paintball are good. I would simply like to see more ways to play that are as well developed as scenario and tournament. If there were different groups playing tournaments with pumps, mechs and 12 grams think of the product variety!! 12 gram speed ball would be nuts because you would be bunkering guys when they are changing cartridges. I would like to see players respected for the style they play if they do it well. I would like to see that respect gained by either having a super techno barn burner or by having aquired the skill level to use a pump to maximum advantage.

Wrapping it all up, the players are happy but there are now fewer of them. Trying to answer why there are less players is open to speculation. My opinion is that there is not enough variety in current paintball to offer opportunities for all styles of play and that these styles needed to be cultivated over a long peroid, you just can't throw a mech tournament and change the world. Players will always be happy or they will cease to be players so the state of the player will always be optomistic even if there are only two left.

You see, when you take the industry issues of it, Tom doesn't have such a bad view of paintball!!

AGD

[matteusz]

I see three trends in threads directed at AGD/ Tom.

First: whining, screaming, begging, crying, complaining . . . for new mag innovations/ products.

Second boils down to: "I am uniformed and have limited knowledge on the industry/ AGD financial status but I LOVE AGD products. What will we do when the go out of business next month after surviving in a volatile industry for two or three decades?"

Third: I have only met him once (or less), used his stuff for x amount of time, and visited 4 websites about him or by him but Tom Kay is god. AKA "Please Tom I am a teenager having an identity crisis who currently finds himself looking up to you. Could you please post here and boost my ego?"

Personally I must say guilty of all three in one form or another. I have only been playing thinking about aware of a few things in paintball for some two years now. Only when I became an adult did I manage to marshal the resources to really start playing and learning about this great game.

I think it is important to point out a couple of things highlighted perhaps best by this thread:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210765&page=1&pp=30

and Tom's comment (and subsequent discussion) within.

Yes I do still own AGD, Zupe owns the inventory and is selling things. It is certainly not clear even if we did make something that people would buy it. Look at the slug body threads where the screams for product are answered but the product remains unsold.

There is a ton going on in the industry right now with the whole NPS/PMI consolidation and yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.

I am sitting back until I see ABSOULUTELY CLEARLY that there is a true demand for a product that is either unpatentable or I already have a patent on. That is a pretty small window to shoot for and unlikely to happen soon. The forum is unreliable for marketing purposes, a few people can make a big noise.

AGD

First, AGD is not run by the players/ purchasers on this forum. Although we occasional think our narcissistic obsession with AGD is what keeps them in business (and at least in small part I am sure it is). The truth is AGD is in business because of the people at AGD being good at what they do and ALL the customers out there who buy their stuff. Now I know you and I have ego's that tell us it is us and only us that keeps AGD going but the truth is it is a much bigger world and no matter how many times it gets posted and commented on we as forum users are not likely to have more than the effect of static noise on the decision to do whatever it is that those at AGD choose to do.

Second, where we can have more than static influence is on our peers. I don't have a breathing friend within phone call distance who hasn't heard about how much fun AGD products have make paintball for me and how badly they need one. Nevermind those I have outfitted with mags.

Third, the best thing you and I can do for paintball (and I am sure for Tom) is first to just relax and assume things will be what we want them to be if we are proactive and ethical in our enjoyment of and influence on the development of the sport. And second post more Tom is god threads and fewer whining crying threads. Unless you are an engineer/ machinist with a large group of lawyers for friends and a healthy appetite for frustration you are not likely to be able to do much for AGD innovations. We really ought to leave all that to those already enjoying the mess.

Ok I am gonna go start a Tom is god thread and then go and enjoy what he has created.

[JRingold]

12 gram speed ball would be nuts because you would be bunkering guys when they are changing cartridges. I would like to see players respected for the style they play if they do it well. I would like to see that respect gained by either having a super techno barn burner or by having aquired the skill level to use a pump to maximum advantage.

AGD

You should visit Minneapolis in August... Farmland Paintball Club's 10-ball tournament is something unique.

[Ninjeff]

Thanks for the reply Tom. I was always interested to know where you stood as a player.
Its refreshing to see that the frustrations of the industry havent completely soiled your appreciation for the sport.

I personally do believe its a sport. Not a "game". And that includes scenario ball too. Granted, its more of a bastardized version of a sport, but a sport no less. Teams, point scoring, winners, losers, positions, the works. Its a sport.

[Ninjeff]

I see three trends in threads directed at AGD/ Tom.

First: whining, screaming, begging, crying, complaining . . . for new mag innovations/ products.

Second boils down to: "I am uniformed and have limited knowledge on the industry/ AGD financial status but I LOVE AGD products. What will we do when the go out of business next month after surviving in a volatile industry for two or three decades?"

Third: I have only met him once (or less), used his stuff for x amount of time, and visited 4 websites about him or by him but Tom Kay is god. AKA "Please Tom I am a teenager having an identity crisis who currently finds himself looking up to you. Could you please post here and boost my ego?"

I tried to move away from those in my questions. Tried to. Thats why i asked about his opinion on the sport as a player, and about what he would like AGD's legacy to be.
Although in retrospect i suppose the patent question has been done to death. Probably could have left that out.

And for the record, in a wierd twisted sense i DO think that the hardcore 'mag enthusiasts are what (at leats partially) keep AGD alive. AGD doesnt advertise (ive havent seen an ad in a magazine recently. ANd i buy them all) but our enthusiasm about the markers are contagious. We get excited about them, and so some new player gets excited too. He buys a mag, and sees why we are all excited. He gets excited and sells his buddy on a mag.....on and on and on. Word of mouth. And the hardcore like Tuna, LukesCustoms, and Rogue keep our need for innovative things satiated which keeps people interested, which continues the cycle.

Ill put it this way, if all mag users stopped posting on forums, all of them, i wonder what the effect would be on AGDs bottom line. (this is a "wonder", im not trying to be a smart***, i do really wonder what would happen)


(((and i sure hope you werent implying that im a teenager looking for an ego boost by asking Tom questions. In my thread starting post you'll see i was mearly looking for past things Tom had said, He was simply nice enough to let me ask him a few.)))

[matteusz]

I tried to move away from those in my questions. Tried to. Thats why i asked about his opinion on the sport as a player, and about what he would like AGD's legacy to be.
Although in retrospect i suppose the patent question has been done to death. Probably could have left that out.

And for the record, in a wierd twisted sense i DO think that the hardcore 'mag enthusiasts are what (at leats partially) keep AGD alive. AGD doesnt advertise (ive havent seen an ad in a magazine recently. ANd i buy them all) but our enthusiasm about the markers are contagious. We get excited about them, and so some new player gets excited too. He buys a mag, and sees why we are all excited. He gets excited and sells his buddy on a mag.....on and on and on. Word of mouth. And the hardcore like Tuna, LukesCustoms, and Rogue keep our need for innovative things satiated which keeps people interested, which continues the cycle.

Ill put it this way, if all mag users stopped posting on forums, all of them, i wonder what the effect would be on AGDs bottom line. (this is a "wonder", im not trying to be a smart***, i do really wonder what would happen)


(((and i sure hope you werent implying that im a teenager looking for an ego boost by asking Tom questions. In my thread starting post you'll see i was mearly looking for past things Tom had said, He was simply nice enough to let me ask him a few.)))

Nah no accusation meant. I guess it was really a bit of thread hijacking on my part. I just have this axe to grind about people throwing things up against Tom's bullet proof glass when they are not in the know with what is really going on behind the scenes. Players with little understanding making statements about the industry and telling AGD as a company what to do is a little egomeniacal in my opinion.

RRfireblade is great for digging all those quotes up for us. I also really appreciate Tom's reply. Although I have to admit I see it as something of a challenge to get a mech circut going. Something that focuses on skill and integrity and not on buying power and outer appearance. Alas I digress. You can read more on that topic here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=215140

Where our conversation quickly digresses to how can we get mech tourney's going all over.

Anyway lovely posts I found them in no way whiny or repetative.

[Ninjeff]

cool dude. Sometimes its hard to separate the general sarcasm form the "attacking" sarcasm.

I too, agree that an all mech tourney would be the way to go.

[rabidchihauhau]

'clink' 'clink'

(two cents)

if wishes were fishes pigs would have wings - or something like that...

Tom put his money where his desires were, both with his company and with the various efforts he supported over the years in trying to foster a 'planned' industry. I can say this because on several occassions, Tom was generous with both his financial and political support with projects that I was working on and asked him to back.

I tried, he tried, several others tried. We all tried REAL hard - heart-and-soul, brains AND money tried. It was not to be.

I think that the only point of divergence between his takes on the future of the industry and my personal view is that I believe (to borrow a phrase from other folks who are also no longer in the industry) that the train has already left the station. I think that there's too much inertia already built up to allow a renaissance to occur. Too much money and planning is invested in getting a return for the things already being backed.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't play the way you want to. As long as you can scrape up enough guys to make up two teams, you can do any damn thing you want - but don't expect big sponsorship, don't expect huge events and don't expect the existing companies to take you under their wing and begin to design and manufacture product to support your 'niche'.

And Tom - I entirely agree: THE most rewarding experience in paintball is to create and successfully execute a plan while others are trying their damndest to screw with it.

[Ninjeff]

See, i DONT think the train has left the station....well...let me re-phrase that:

I think it left the station, made a few stops, and is coming back around.
Look at the EXPLOSION of the woodsball market over the last few years. I know when i stopped playing in 01, you didnt call a gun a "gun" it was a marker. And everyone was trying to stray from any similarities to "war" games as possible. Now you have full on milsim, camo from almost every major clothing company, scenario games posting huge attendance, and tourneys like the SPPL gaining steam. Heck they now sell "markers" that look so much like real guns they "STRONGLY ADVISE YOU NOT TO DISPLAY THIS IN PUBLIC" (says on the box of my Tacamo Type 68)

Seems like slowly, but surely, the train is making its rounds. In the 6 years since i left the sport it has come around full circle to where it was when it started. Or, at least, in a sense.

the tourney crowd is still very much alive and kicking, but alot of the industry is starting to wake up and realize there are THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of players who live in the bush, just waiting to execute that perfect plan.

[Lohman446]

One train has left the station, is building momentum and will not be stopped anytime soon. Some of the passengers on it are going to be surprised when that momentum throws them off. There is a new train though, that seems to be sitting in the station and is unlikely to move for now. I don't know, we were talking about trains... and I got confused.

Train 1:
Once upon a time TK stepped into an industry from outside with ideas to make the game safer. These ideas turned to ways to make the game better. It was not with a massive outlay of capital (at first) but with innovation, blood, sweat, and tears. Hard work was the key to success. Others were there too, don't discount the contributions they made to paintball.

The key was with enough effort, with enough committment one could make a pretty decent living in the game, well catering to it. These people tried to build something over time. A good amount of their profits were poured back into the game as a whole, not necessarily to build their name and future revenue, but to build the game itself.

One could bring there ideas to the game, and alter the very landscape of paintball itself. Dave Youngblood and Dye committed to "bringing paintball out of the woods" and have been largely successful, we see an entire format that has almost a disdain for the woods. The last "national tournament", nationally recognized speedball field with a tree in it has left us with the Badlands removing that great field that should have served as a memory of where we had come from. To me it was "the" field. If I had to pick out a single field I liked more than others it was that, it exists only in my memory and I played less than a half dozen games on it. Don't discount others - TK saw constant air as a great part of the sport, his genorousity brought it to the normal paintballer, along with powerfeeds and many other innovations. SP/WDP/PVI saw an electronic marker, and like what they have done since then ore not, they brought it to us. Don't discount what people did in the past for recent wrongs, if you beleive them wrong. Look at the formation of the NPPL, a group of dedicated players attempting to bring us change.

Effort, dedication, not money ruled the sport. There were capital outlays, but not like what it would take today. The train that says the sport, as a whole, was ruled by the players for the good of the sport and not immediate monetary return. That train is gone, and its picking up speed. To effect changes in paintball today, the monetary outlay would be tremendous, more than one would have ever imagined in the day. A few of the old companies may think they are in control of that train, but with bigger money coming in, ruled by the demands of investors, they are on a train that they alone can no longer stop, and there footing on that train is less stable than anyone would like to beleive. Don't misunderstand me, effort and capital have always been needed. Effort is needed today, but the equation has changed to favor capital.

Is there good news in this? Of course, I mentioned two trains. Train 2

Certain things have fallen off of train number 1. Certain things that those who were trying to load it for a different journey are left behind for all of us to enjoy. Paint today is cheaper then ever. Equipment today is, out of the box, frankly better than it was before. Even if one choses to disagree with the better comment today, there is no doubt one can get competetive equipment for a fraction of the cost of years ago. "Specialty" equipment that it took to play is becoming common place. Drives to find HPA get shorter and shorter, as more fields see it as a staple of doing business. CO2 is readily available in most any area. And yes, for those that have none available, theres even multiple marker choices that require neither, using propane or batteries.

When one mentions playing paintball they are no longer looked at with a sideways glance. There is a good chance more than one person who works with you has either played it at some level, or is interested in playing it. There are more players out there - the pie that those founding fathers sought to make bigger is bigger.

There are different classes of paintball. Stock class tournaments are out there, granted they are about as hard to find as "normal" paintball was years ago, but they exist for those who wish to find them. Woodsball, organized woodsball is out there, both in scenario games and a seeming resurgance of woods tournaments. Scenario play is out there. Speedball, and the tournament paintball that it brings is out there. There different enough, and seperated enough from each other, as TK stated, there players can be totally different, and others can choose to play any style they want. You can go with a group of friends in the woods with more readily available equipment, you can play in almost any style you are willing to invest effort in. And its easier than it was in the beginning. That, and advances have made it safer. It was a miracle every weekend at one point that noone was hurt - seriously - playing, now playing paintball seems relatively safe, safety gear, safety standards have kept at bay some of the risks, and the mumbled explanations about split lips, welts on the cheeks, and any number of "injuries" that were common enough at one point.

So, is paintball worse off or better? For the average everyday player its probably better. In the long term? We have lost those who would advance the game for love of the sport, sure they are still out there, but they will not have the voices that others once had, others have burned out and left us taking great ideas with them. We now have to cope with a paintball world run from the board room, not the field and shops that are an everyday part of the game. As concentration is placed on profit we will probably lose some of the diversity we have. As "big business" gets involved small retailers will feel the pinch of trying to compete with companies that can buy, and sell, a million dollars of inventory at deep discounts.

I'm not scared of where paintball is today.... I am scared of where paintball will go in its next 15 years.

[Ninjeff]

"We have lost those who would advance the game for love of the sport,"

I could not, in anyway, agree more with that statement.

However, ive been into paintball for 10 years, not as much as some, but definitely more than others. And i can tell you that woodsball was never as big as it is now. Never. Ever Ever. Sure, all the "new" players played in the woods, and indeed some vets when needed. But there was always a push towards the speedball court. I cant remember any other time when this amount of support for woodsball players existed.

Regardless, i agree that the greta thing is that whatever you want, game play or marker wise, is available for your taking. Its great really.

What does paintball need imo? An organized governing body. Something to "standardise" the tourney scene. I think its a given that you cant let a bunch of people crazy enough to get shot at with balls of liquid fired at 200mph govern themselves. It just doesnt work when there is no organized body to answer to. We HAVE to have a over-seeing body for tournaments. There has to be real repercussions for cheating and other things.

I dont know what all teh talk about trains was...lol...but what can you do?

All i know is that my train goes "chuff-chuff" instead of "choo-choo".

[rabidchihauhau]

Once upon a time, some people recognized that the industry needed: an industry organization with some teeth (safety regulation enforcement, field practices enforcement, national advertising and marketing, loose but defined 'intro to paintball' practices, law making body, lobby group) and a sports governing body or bodies with teeth - particularly in the arms race arena.

Those never happened.

Now, even if they were to happen, they would be nothing but a tool of some special interest(s) within the industry. There's just too much money, troo many external connections, too many non-paintbalkl community folks and too much 'weight' behind the corporate entities for it to be any other way.

The earlier trend was for the 'small' (relatively speaking, of course) corporate paintball giants to corrupt any such efforts towards their own ends (which is why there aren't any now). It will be far worse and far less transparent in the future.

***

No matter how you slice it, the tournament scene, as well as the so-called 'new' return to woodsball competition (funny, tournaments used to mean woodsball, now we have to stick that word in front of it...) have never been anything other than a marketing and advertising arm for a few large companies and a couple of hangers-on who are content with the leavings. If anyone thinks otherwise, they just don't realize how badly they are being used.

[Lohman446]

Once upon a time, some people recognized that the industry needed: an industry organization with some teeth (safety regulation enforcement, field practices enforcement, national advertising and marketing, loose but defined 'intro to paintball' practices, law making body, lobby group) and a sports governing body or bodies with teeth - particularly in the arms race arena.

Those never happened.

Now, even if they were to happen, they would be nothing but a tool of some special interest(s) within the industry. There's just too much money, troo many external connections, too many non-paintbalkl community folks and too much 'weight' behind the corporate entities for it to be any other way.

The earlier trend was for the 'small' (relatively speaking, of course) corporate paintball giants to corrupt any such efforts towards their own ends (which is why there aren't any now). It will be far worse and far less transparent in the future.

***

No matter how you slice it, the tournament scene, as well as the so-called 'new' return to woodsball competition (funny, tournaments used to mean woodsball, now we have to stick that word in front of it...) have never been anything other than a marketing and advertising arm for a few large companies and a couple of hangers-on who are content with the leavings. If anyone thinks otherwise, they just don't realize how badly they are being used.

I have to agree. Decisions made now, at least for the sport as a whole, will be made in corporate board rooms to protect investor interests. The "move" to more safety, if we ever see it, will be to guard against liability, not for the good of the sport - I use that only as an example.

Maybe we're wrong, maybe there is a grass roots movement somewhere, but I just don't see it. Paintball players today are not organized enough, are generally not long lived enough (in the sport), and generally don't care enough to effect change on a large scale.