Introducing the Micromag 2009

[nuclear zombie]

You're right, it's not a fair comparison- MW2 has to run on an infinite number of hardware configurations, powered by an infinite number of drivers, with an infinite number of consumer-set software settings. Not to mention it has to have stupidly sweet graphics, with no clipping, frame drops, or lag. It also has to be nothing less than substantially similar to the Xbox and PS3 versions. Oh, and it's their first time around the block with the brand new engine it's built on.

The Micromag body is a rehash of something they've already done, with the addition of breeches. Not designing a marker from scratch. So yeah, you figure it should be pretty straightforward. They know the internal specs and the tolerances... just chop up the outside. Maybe they should've ordered those pseudo slugs from XMagterror (he's the one who makes/made them, right?).

If by infinite you mean only newer hardware, where Directx or OpenGL do all the heavy lifting between the software and hardware. Where nearly a team of nearly a hundred people work full time on "re-hashing" the same crap games they've made before. All infinity ward has to do is make one good version, and copy the rest.

The micromag may seem like a re-hash, but given that they have to out outsource testing to RRF I get the impression that the people actually making these had nothing to do with the original micromags.

Of course we are arguing about totally different processes, both of which we really don't know how much work is happening in the background, that's what really makes this a crap comparison.

I just bought into this pre-order a couple of weeks ago by buying someone's spot. I really haven't been waiting long and I really don't agree with the pre-order process many of the paintball builders are currently using. The design should be finalized, and prototyping done before a single pre-order is taken, the idea that the sear location is still being adjusted 8 months after the last pre-order is ludicrous.

[Engus]

But why? This may be a pre-order thread but the pre-orders are done with. There really is nothing else that is worthwhile discussing in this thread besides the current state of affairs, which is piss poor if you ask me.
. This is nothing new to AO as I said, it happens ALLLL the time and it is really getting pathetic.
This can be discussed in a mature way guys. I want what is best for the forum and right now all these pushed-back pre-orders are making us look like pushovers.

That's why I think a generic discussion, or maybe even a community created sticky relating to pre-orders would be a better place. If it was merely a warning to newer members or maybe a set of standards to go by or whatever, but the point is that this isn't just a single companies issue.

[Chris]

And Chris....... you sure got a Christmas gift from AOModerationTeam.
You didnt get time out in the corner for naughty words so merry Christmas.

This place isn't what it used to be...Look at my post count, Im hardly here anyways.

FWIW, I used the fantastic * to replace a letter in a swear word.

Either way, Merry Christmas to everyone!

[Shirow]

This place isn't what it used to be...Look at my post count, Im hardly here anyways.

FWIW, I used the fantastic * to replace a letter in a swear word.

Either way, Merry Christmas to everyone!

You cannot use * you must use because one is offensive and the other isn't

[Drix]

That's why I think a generic discussion, or maybe even a community created sticky relating to pre-orders would be a better place. If it was merely a warning to newer members or maybe a set of standards to go by or whatever, but the point is that this isn't just a single companies issue.

I think it's better to keep everything in the same spot, and moving it is slightly shady. This thread has evolved to be the PTP Micromag order thread, and has been going on for months because a product has not been delivered as advertised. If we wanted to change the thread, we should have done it months ago, not now that it looks bad on PTP's part because they've been dragging their heels in production because we are not first rate customers. Having customers complain about their oder here is logical and should not have been unexpected.

Building a second thread hidden in the depths of somewhere makes absolutely no sense and is slighlty beurocratic and is only an attempt to salvage PTP's street rep in the paintball community at this time.

[Engus]

I think it's better to keep everything in the same spot, and moving it is slightly shady. This thread has evolved to be the PTP Micromag order thread and has been going on for months because a product has not been delivered as advertised- If we wanted to change the thread we should have done it months ago not now that it looks bad on PTP's part because they've been dragging their heels in production because we are not first rate customers. Having customers complain about their oder here is logical and should not have been unexpected.

Building a second thread hidden in the depths of somewhere makes absolutely no sense and is slighlty beurocratic and is only an attempt to salvage PTP's street rep in the paintball community at this time.

Complaints and discussion in this thread (from people who actually ordered) is logical. What I meant was some of the stuff about all the different failed/delayed preorders on AO, and that we shouldnt let it just slide. That part of the last couple pages would be much better suited in a new thread.
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[Drix]

Complaints and discussion in this thread (from people who actually ordered) is logical. What I meant was some of the stuff about all the different failed/delayed preorders on AO, and that we shouldnt let it just slide. That part of the last couple pages would be much better suited in a new thread.
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Oh, my appologies, I misred. I agree discussions about the current mentality of paintballers and pre-orders and forum busniess practices are better suited elsewhere unless being used in direct reference or correlation with PTP's project.

[Mongoose]

Quick observation:

Why is it that PTP pulls the same stuff as other mag "dealers" with a preorder that stretches far far too long with no end in sight... but they have to be treated "like a lady" and everybody just accepts it?

Nearchos was less further behind (albeit out of contact) and at least one AO'er involved the police.

When is AO going to stop supporting this clearly flawed business model? Do you preorder cars or TVs or kitchen tables (not order or custom order, preorder) and then get kicked around for months and still smile about it? Business is the practice of taking monetary risks for potential monetary gain; when you guys participate in a preorder like this, you remove any element of risk for the "seller" and accordingly, any incentive. They have your money, so who cares if they get the product to you months late? They're paid, they're all set.

I understand PTP also (allegedly) has military contracts (which I suppose we could look up if we were so inclined). However, that is not an excuse for your bodies being what, 6 months late? With no delivery date in sight? PTP should have either not started this project without being able to guarantee they will have human and machine time to complete it, or they should have scheduled it to a time they knew that human and machine time was available. If the prospect of on-demand orders with rapid fulfillment requirements existed, a project like this shouldn't have been undertaken.

This project was announced roughly eleven months ago. You guys preordered based on renders. In the original post, Tracy_ptp said they would keep preorders open for 2-3 weeks and hope to be shipping the product 4-6 weeks after that. By my math, at worst, that puts your bodies in hand by the end of March. Then, in April, Tracy_ptp said they had material ordered and they were ready to move forward. Why was the material not ordered until after her original worst case projected delivery date? Then the first pictures of actual bodies showed up when, this fall? And it looked kinda weird on the gun, especially that 1/2 inch or so above the valve.

I don't know guys, why? Is this body THAT awesome? Is it worth two ULEs plus the wait to be able to switch out breeches? Or for that matter, have the dealers of AO and the rest of paintball ever put out a product that was worth a pre-order period like this? I frankly can't think of one that ever went smoothly, but I'm sure some have. Maybe something Coolhand did back in the day? Or something Deadlywind?

I don't have any financial interest in this project, just commentary after having watched this drag on for months with you poor souls salivating for any update about what is going on with stuff you ordered almost a year ago. Something that isn't nuclear powered, doesn't require quantum engineering (and shouldn't require much, if any... the specs for the bodies exist, just draw it and machine it [over simplified, yes, i understand, but nothing groundbreaking going on]). Nothing is original except for the cosmetics on this, and yet you're still waiting a year+.

Maybe it's time to be done with preorders and force the dealers to put a product up before you put cash up, same way every other business (especially businesses operating in this price range) has to do. If that means dealers leave, well, that sucks for them. You'll be left with dealers who make a quality product and are quality businessmen and women.

/rant, happy holidays

A few small company's are trying to make parts to help keep mags alive.
Your rant makes alot of sense and i agree with most of it...but your missing a few things.
Automags are a very small niche market, Considering that AGD isn't making anything new and at most you would sell a few hundred parts.....do you honestly think that any company would want to invest money into producing a part that will bring them back pennies in profit?

I dont wanna speak for anyone else, but i am making parts because i love my mags..nothing more! The only way we could ever have produced our rails was with the support of AO/BEO. And during our pre order we fell behind too.....but it wasnt for lack of effort or because i had your deposit in my back pocket. I am sure PTP is doing everything they can to complete this project and deliver a great product.

I hate to say it but if you eliminate pre orders your gonna eliminate 99% of all new products that would be offered for our sacred mags.

[Shirow]

I hear what you're saying Mongoose and I don't disagree that often preorders are needed for things to be feasible.

However..

It is more the manner of how information is provided that is at fault here, I think. I work as a project manager and I have to deal with communicating information about project delays to people all the time.

People are much more willing to accept it if they are being communicated with honestly and at regular intervals.

If you take $100 from someone and say 'we'll turn this project around in 6 weeks' and over the next 8 months, provide little more than a couple of pictures, I think most people would be upset.

If you post once a week with pictures of progress or an explanation of why there is a delay, I think (most) people will be accepting of the situation.

The big downfall to most preorders I think is the giant information gap where there is little posted other than 'I'm working on it.'

People want to see progress or hear what is going on.. weeks of silence doesn't really work.

[Drix]

I said that months ago and got scoffed at

[Shirow]

I said that months ago and got scoffed at

Well, speaking generally (as in, this isn't directly pointed at PTP or anyone else) it is in the best interests of all manufacturers to preserve the status quo.

That being said, with the number of failures we can all cite.. I find it hard to see why anyone would be opposed to trying to hold manufacturers accountable to a certain standard, even if that standard is just something like updates every week.

It's not like we can lay down the law here.. but I generally try not to get into preorders because I find it hard to just hope that one day, I will get to see something I've already sunk money into.

If there were regular updates as to project status, I'd feel a lot more comfortable giving someone potentially hundreds of dollars up front.

[Ratt]

I find it hard to see why anyone would be opposed to trying to hold manufacturers accountable to a certain standard, even if that standard is just something like updates every week.

I feel it's kind of hard to hold "someone to a standard" when they are the ones going out of their way to make us a product. Not only are they making us a product, but they are making it to our standards and specifications. They have made numerous customer-requested changes along the way, and they are supporting a war. On top of that, they probably aren't making a lot of money out of this run of product. No one else is going to make the product for us. Face it...there aren't companies lining up at the door to make quality products for our niche.
After all the flak that PTP has taken over this, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to never make another product for us again, which would be a shame...

[Shirow]

I feel it's kind of hard to hold "someone to a standard" when they are the ones going out of their way to make us a product. Not only are they making us a product, but they are making it to our standards and specifications. They have made numerous customer-requested changes along the way, and they are supporting a war. On top of that, they probably aren't making a lot of money out of this run of product. No one else is going to make the product for us. Face it...there aren't companies lining up at the door to make quality products for our niche.
After all the flak that PTP has taken over this, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to never make another product for us again, which would be a shame...

I agree with some of what you're saying and I want to reiterate that this was more into the response of the numerous pre-order failures here than PTP specifically.

I also agree that it's impossible to hold anyone to a standard by any means other than not giving them your money if you disagree with their method of doing business.

It's just a shame that we have to accept unspecified timelines with no end in sight on some projects just because there is little alternative.

Like I said in an earlier post - I wouldn't even necessarily have a problem with vague timelines if there were regular updates as to what was going on. I just feel like with some projects all you really get is once or twice a month a vague post like 'everything is going OK' or whatever which doesn't really work for me, personally.

[vf-xx]

This is a problem that is not limited to paintball actually.

I also collect Transformers, and I've seen many fan based figure projects drag on and on. I expect it happens with all hobbies.

[Shirow]

This is a problem that is not limited to paintball actually.

I also collect Transformers, and I've seen many fan based figure projects drag on and on. I expect it happens with all hobbies.

Yeah, I don't doubt that it's an ongoing problem as I see it in real life with large companies all the time

I guess what I'm trying to get across for anyone reading this that engages in these selling practices is just - be honest! If you didn't do anything this week because you were busy with other stuff or, hell, you just didn't feel like it - tell people. Most people are pretty understanding. It just sucks when you have to keep asking and the response is 'everything is OK!' or whatever which is meaningless.

I think if you look at the Cheater sale thread, it's a good example of a well communicated project with a timely completion. There were a couple of minor delays and Zap was quick about posting updates about what was going on. There was never a long period of time without meaningful updates and he didn't overextend himself.