Is there really any design difference between >>>>

[AGD]

The Angel, Impulse, Intimidator, Bushmaster or even the Cocker?? Seems to me they are more alike than different.

Your opinions?

AGD

[thei3ug]

I remember when the angel came out, a lot of people were calling it the "blowback electro." I suppose the "simulated closed bolt" nonsense was meant to counteract that. But you're right, it is more like an autococker than it is any other current non-electro.

It is the exhaust valve arrangement that makes it so similar, so in terms of lineage, you could say that their similarities arise from their mimickery of sheridans.

What I think is interesting is the wide differences in aftermarket parts for each marker. Each community seems to have found unique ways that they need to differentiate their marker, and it appears that only recently have they begun to converge.

[the JoKeR]

There's only so many ways to skin a cat. Until somebody comes up with something truely unique, I'd guess we are going to continue to see a lot of guns that are pretty similar. I would also guess that a lot of patent rights are either holding back some companies or are scaring others away from new designs. Look at all the huff surrounding loaders and BE...

[thei3ug]

I just thought about this... you COULD say "is there REALLY any difference between an automag, a desert fox, an ls2000, an equalizer, a badger, an armson, a scorpion semi kit..." i think there's one I'm missing.

Seems to me they're more alike than different.

[pbjosh]

Well, you asked for it, and I fell for the bait-

"The Angel, Impulse, Intimidator, Bushmaster or even the Cocker?? Seems to me they are more alike than different"

Alike at what level? At some level they are just chunks of metal and/or plastic that fire a paintball using compressed air.

The difference in actions or events to fire the ball seems to be a much debated and hyped thing. So, IMHO

I will throw all the over/under electros in with the over/under Blowbacks. Why? The action is the same. Take a spyder, remove the spring and add a ram and 4-way solenoid valve, and to can have the same action as an angel. The components are almost interchangable. They all have a linkage between the bolt and hammer. If you want to paint a broader brush, they are all single action paintball guns. When tuning the electronic components, you need one solenoid on, then off. Easy sqweezy.

The Cocker needs to be in another section. Sure the valving is similiar. But the action is totally different. If it was electro it has to be timed with three parts, solenoid one on/off, dwell, solenoid two on/off. A shocker would be closer in action than an angel. Sure the valving is different, but the number of actions needed to achieve a ball launch is more involved. Unless you are a bit scrambled in the head and try to make a 'Cocker single action, and well, that is what happens with the PGI firestorm kit. And the hammer and bolt are still not connected. They are timed different with internal springs.

So, if we look at two areas, valving and action the Cocker and Spyder types are 1 degree away, the Shocker is 2 degrees away from the Spyder types. Shocker and Mag are 1 degree away, since both use a dump valve.

Josh

[thei3ug]

I don't think looking at it strictly by automation design should be the determining factor in lineage.

Your analogy of blowbacks to open bolt electros has been noted from the beginning, but once again, the very essense of what it is to be a blowback is lost when there is no exhaust port for the hammer on an electro.

Also take into account the lineage of blowback semis. Once again, they lead us to one source: the sheridan valve system. The heart of the firing sequence.

[Vegeta]

In my opinion tehre are only a few original semi-auto markers. They all boil down about 3 categories:

The Tippmann based
The Automag
The Converted Pumps (cocker)

Tippmann was the first to think of hte inline valve.. hti by a hamme.. moving a powertube, and firing the ball and then blowign hte hammer back to it's cocked position. Now you may think 'what about stacked tube blow backs?' Guess what folk- smae damn thing. just htat the bolt in linked to the hammer vertically and the valve routes the gas upwards thru the bolt. Same thing.

BTW i got the info that Tippy was first from an old APG article about the evolution of markers. Word of mouth.

Now the Mag is in a class of it's own. Blowforward dump chamber... well not much I can say there.

Cocker is just an automated pumpuing system. We all know how that works.

So currently- almost ALL guns are based off of those three. With the exception of spoll valve guns like the Nova/Mayhem.

till someone comes up with a new configuration .. thats what we are stuck with.

[subbeh]

Originally posted by Vegeta
Cocker is just an automated pumpuing system. We all know how that works.

Hence the name Autococker I suppose Sorry, the intelligence level of this thread is far too high for me.

[FatMan]

What about the Nova? It has similarities with the Mag, but also differences. Is it a class by itself or in one of the other categories?

FatMan

[Vegeta]

Spool valve.. I'd class it in its own.. along wit hthe new mayhems.

[thei3ug]

Vegeta, the automag is not in a class of its own. Look in my second post... there's a list of blowforewards that use similar, if not near identical operation to the automag.

[zen_dawg]

What ever happened to that I.C.E. marker? Im not sure what the name was, i think it was called the "Eclipse" Their design was a radical one. From what i've heard, the gun utilizes a "trap door" system to fire a p-ball.

[BlackVCG]

You mean the Epic? It was a boltless gun that had a trap door that would open up each time to let the next ball in the chamber.

[thei3ug]

It is still around. the time of release and the MSRP kinda hampered sales.

[Cha0tic]

yes, the epic was very expensive for what it was. it had a very limited rof, somthing around 10bps, but you could never chop. good idea, but today players look for speed in their markers.