Is there really any design difference between >>>>

[athomas]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

The electro is cool to people because it shoots fast with minimal effort. You take any marker and add electronics to it to increase the rate of fire and it instantly becomes cool to most people regardless of looks. Other markers look cool and have the intimidation affect on players. Ever hear inexperienced players looking at a spazzed up marker and commenting "Wow. I'll bet that gun shoots fast" or "I'll bet that gun is accurate".

Personally, like a lot of people, I like my markers to stand out from others at the field where I play.

Marker styles are all based on similar technologies. Push a ball into the breach and fire it using compressed gas. Its as simple as that.

[manike]

Colin, welcome to AO.

Most definitely a pleasure to have your company here. :)

manike

[nicad]

manike- hehe.. right now your at 1234 posts.
also, your the manike from racegun, right?

I love hype.. I heard an ad on the radio the other day about some cordless drill.. they said.. "It has 40% more torque".

Uumm- 40% more than what?!?! they really expect me to believe that??
uhgg.. im just going to start going around spouting out crazy, outlandish claims and see how many people believe me.. :)

[Miscue]

I think it's cuz cocker's have that moving back block. People are mesmorized by it, just like shiny things.

[mykroft]

Some people are incredibly fast on the cocker's trigger. I know somebody who can reliably hit 13bps on a cocker (Note his pre-paintball hobby was speed emtal guitar, 8 years of training his fingers to be fast+lots of talent). Most people can't fire faster than 8-10bps on anything. So popularity pretty much comes down to the autococker and Angel at the high end. If you prefer mechanical, it's the cocker, electronic is the Angel. Now the one thing both these markers have in common, besides excellent performance, is the cosmetic factor, they are very pretty, and very customizable markers.

Now design wise, The Bushmaster, Intimidator and Impulse are virtually identical. The Autococker is similar, but not identical (Closed bolt, ram is pneumatically actuated in both directions, seperate hammer). An EM1 is a Bushmaster with teh Ram stroke reversed (Pnematic fired, spring cocked instead of vice-versa).

The Matrix and Nova are 2 variations on the same principle, but varying wildly in application.

I don't know enough abou the shockers internals to comment, apart from it appears to have a cocking solenoid and a firing solenoid.

[nerobro]

Originally posted by AGD


Do they? How does that explain the fact that the Autococker is the most poplular high end gun on the planet right now?

AGD

We've had some pretty long discussions on this one over the dinner table with the IPR midwest guys, and with people at the field...... Short of people just plain likeing the trigger feel. (I'm one of those people..... ) there's this thing about the recriprocating back block. it moves.. it entrances.. and it hypnotizes it's users. I see so many dedicated people with cockers who have them setup so poorly that I can make them stumble over their own 4ways. (outrunning the gun... without shortstroking)

I'm gong to leave the cocker out of the rest of this... because of data brought up in another thread in the deep blue forum. glen has gotten a autococking gun to spit 20+bps... I think that is good enough for me ;-) (just glazes over the whole bolt open time thing........ )

As for real differences... Most of the electroguns out there are different only in very sutble ways. I too can't see the difference between most of them. I can't easily defend a defiant versus a bushmaster, or an impulse, or any of the other stacked tube electroguns. The only thing that even puts the angel in a different class is it's build quality and attention to detail. (though lets not mention the regs *grins*)

I think your last statement about electros being cool becuase they're cool is correct. There's been a recent surge in mechanical guns that happen to have electronic triggers on them. Mostly spyders, but the emag, matrix, eNOVA, and rainmaker could all be included in this category. Excluding the emag, they all have essentialy the same trigger, shared with just about every electrogun on tha market, from the em-1 through the angel, to the excalibur. But people don't want to use them..... why? Because they aren't "true electropneumatic guns." The meaning of that looses me... but it's their way of classifying the guns with microswitch triggers from the guns that won't run well without a computer in them.

If you want to talk preformance, even an electrospyder will keep up with an angel, and versus chopping the ball, it'll just stop on it... Take a look at the e-mag, players didn't want it beacuse it had too big of a battery, even though on paper it is the best preforming electrogun out there. (if you dont' put a lot of weight on efficancy) They'll still go for the impulse because they like the eye.. even though the level 10 negates the need, and the extremes will have them.

I'm quite sure it's an image thing. The generation of "true electropneumatics" as they want to call them are just limp wristed spyders that need a 9volt to run properly. I think we're seeing the next long barrel, or lp fad.. and it's all in with the guns that can't survive without a comptuer.

if only they'd listen to reason ;-) There's another point to bring up.. so long as you're not outrunning the gun, who cares about preformance? (I hate even being somewhat close to the limits of my gun... but I feel the need to share why ian sticks with his angel) he's shooting not more than 12bps... so why should he get an e-mag? he likes the looks of his angel......

I think i'm rambling at this point. I think it comes down to status, looks and style. None of it has to do with real preformance......

[ega]

yep, it is about looks and intimidation.
i remember one of the games where we had a bunch of
guys with spyders, stock cockers and 1 mag (me) and overheard another player telling his buddy " ho damn, they got angels and free flow cocker on the other side!!! we're gonna get smashhh!!!" got me pissed and we kicked there butt. go figure.




aiy't

[Nytebreed]

I love the looks I get when I put away my angel in tourney to shoot my old minimag. Then again it was my seccond marker after my phantom, so ive learned how to tune it quite well over the years.

[Ityl]

Re: Is there really any design difference between >>>>

Originally posted by AGD
The Angel, Intimidator, Bushmaster

they are basically the same

Originally posted by AGD
Impulse

same as above but without a lpr, runs at low enough pressure so the solenoid runs off the same pressure as what pushes the ball

Originally posted by AGD
or even the Cocker??

Same valve but the bolt isn't connected to the hammer.

it's funny that all these guns, which some go over $1k, all have the same valve as the $100 Spyder.

[mykroft]

Ityl, the valve is different. While they are all poppet valves, the Spyder's and all blowbacks have 2 air esxits (1 to the bolt, 1 to the hammer). All of the autococking & poppet-valve electro's have only one air exit (to the bolt).

[Ityl]

Originally posted by mykroft
Ityl, the valve is different. While they are all poppet valves, the Spyder's and all blowbacks have 2 air esxits (1 to the bolt, 1 to the hammer). All of the autococking & poppet-valve electro's have only one air exit (to the bolt).

very true...

[nerobro]

Pssst.... cocker valves have air come out on 2 paths too ;-) all a spyder vavle has is a REALLY leaky poppet valve. A few aftermarket cocker valves have o-rings to seal that...... but many don't and leak just the same.

[Danny77]

well this conversation kind of went the other way...

I remember when I first was interested in the mag- the reason being, I saw some guy shooting it in an APG magazine, and im like thats cool! I want one!(that was about a year and a half ago)

Later I started researching about it, and found that theres a lot more to the mag than just being a cool gun...and the cockers old nemisis.

...the perfect gun for speedball for me...Now I just need some money:)

[314159]

sounds like you need a pgp

that's what i play with when i am short of cash ^_^

[XR4]

Design Classification

A lot has already been said on this issue, but I feel something is missing. We're comparing paintball technology without a proper break down. I feel there are three areas of importance.

1 method for firing the ball, actually applying the gas.
2 method for reload, actuating the bolt to open the breach and resetting the hammer, if equipped.
3 controls, motion from trigger to actuating systems.

1) method for firing the ball.
Here, all markers where hammers strike exhaust valves are almost indistinguishable. Yes tippmans and nelson pumps have the valve and bolt in-line, but this does not matter. This detail does not significantly affect performance.

Other forms of marker include the mag, nova, and a few others. I'm not too familiar with the matrix, does it have a hammer? The greatest difference in these 3 design catagorie has to be hammer, or no hammer. The other 2 catagories serve mainly to seperate the hammer equipped guns on their own, relatively minor differences.

2) method for resetting bolt, and hammer if equipped.
A Blow back markers. the hammer and bolt are directly linked at all times. A blast of air from the same valve used to fire the ball is applied to the hammer.

B Electro with bolt and hammer directly linked. These markers include the Angel, Bushmaster, Impulse, and others. The tool used to reset the bolt does not matter for classification, so long as its not blow back.

C Bolt and hammer not directly linked markers. The most important being the Autococker and Rainmaker/Vector, but don't leave out the Excalibur. With the two major events (firing and breach opening) seperated the issue of timing arises. The RM/Vector cleverly dismisses the issue by having the ram actuate both, first one, then the other. Anyways, the relationship between these two events is now negotiable, an important distinction.

D Non blow back spring return, such as the mag and nova. When fired the spring holding the breach open is compressed. After the ball is fired the spring returns the breach to its open position.

3 Contols. This catagory is more than just electro or mechanical. In electros it includes the device used to actuate the systems its connected to. For the angel, this means the selenoids and 14 way valve.

A Mechanical pneumatic. This is the autococker, Vector, Blazer, automag, and Nova. Valves are mechanically actuated by the trigger which sets the gun in motion.

B Electro pneumatic. This includes the Angel, Bushmaster, Impulse, Excalibur, ect. Selenoids actuate pneumatic rams or valves to cycle the gun. The E-mag is here only because the r/t valve is itself a pneumatic actuator.

C Electro, non-pneumatic. Tippmann electro, some Kingman electros, Boo-Yah. Here, the selenoid directly actuates the gun, typically by pulling the sear. Even though the E-mag adds only a selenoid to the r/t valve, the E-mag is not in this catagorie because the selenoid actuates pneumatics (the r/t valve itself.) In this catagory, the selenoid must actuate the gun through mechanical interaction.

D Purely mechanical. Tippmann, Spyders, ect. No AGD products other than panther.


Do design differences exist between the high end hammer based markers? Yes, most relatively minor. So what's the point? I agree with the others who have elluded to this: PRODUCT PERFORMANCE HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH SALES PERFORMANCE. Read the last sentence again. I've raced radio control cars from the age of 13. I've raced (autocross) real cars since I was 18. I've played paintball since I was 19. All of these activities involve equippment in a way that I love, that's why I'm a mechanical engineering student. What have I learned? The enthusiast consumer has no way to scientifically evaluate the product. Take this story for example:

My father grew up in Richmond VA and was a regular at just about every race at he could attend. One weekend, the roof of Richard Petty's car was damaged somehow before the race. To get it looking presentable by race day the crew threw a vinyl roof kit on and Petty wins the race. Next weekend, a couple other teams have vinyl roof kits on their cars.

Paintball too is a sport chock full of myth and fantasy. Look at all the fools who failed high school physics and are completely certain that cockers shoot farther than other markers. Sure that's one of the worst, but many believe that a 16" boomstick is more efficeint than a 10". Look at all of Smart Parts marketing. In this world, facts and figures don't matter. What markers Avalanche and After Shock use is what counts here. I wish Bad Company all the luck in the world. Not because victory with spyders should be a testament to Kingman, but it shows that marker doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks.

What matter to me in a marker? Trigger. Recoil. Consistancy. Efficiency.

I shoot an e-mag.

Out
XR