Is there really any design difference between >>>>

[AGD]

but today players look for speed in their markers

Do they? How does that explain the fact that the Autococker is the most poplular high end gun on the planet right now?

AGD

[thei3ug]

Tom,
As much as I'd love to discuss the technological merits and downfalls of markers, you've just opened up a whole new can of worms.

The problem isn't which design has the fastest cycle rate, which one can recharge fastest, which one has the ability to go the 50 yd dash on a unicycle...

When people talk of speed, it's a very personal subject. Some people just can't fire electronic triggers (like myself). Some people just can't fire automags. Some can't fire autocockers. Some will never want to go beyond a blowback.

instance: my younger brother, when he plays, can hammer on that cocker trigger and make you wonder whether he's having a seizure. You give him a mag or an electro, and he'll throw it in the dirt after the first game because he can't get a rhythm.

[RT_Luver]

Originally posted by AGD


Do they? How does that explain the fact that the Autococker is the most poplular high end gun on the planet right now?

AGD

I believe(and so do many other people) that the reason the cocker is so popular is that their are SO MANY different ways to make it work and make it look. i mean you can get parts from 20 different companies and so can everyone else so its ALMOST impossible for some one to have the same gun that you do, and thats why I think people like them, the ability to be so different from others

[Ultimator]

Originally posted by thei3ug
instance: my younger brother, when he plays, can hammer on that cocker trigger and make you wonder whether he's having a seizure

hahahaha.

Anyway, good point you have. I can absolutely not get any kind of rhythm on any Spyder. 'Mags I don't have a problem with and angels, it's just a matter of sticking your finger on the trigger and moving it as fast as possible.

To some point, I agree with Tom, but in a different way. many companies take (I won't say steal) ideas from others (i.e. Company A comes up with the shortest trigger pull on any frame out there ... Company B makes the exact same thing because they realize the superiority and calls it something different.) So indirectly, I guess, everything ends up getting related in some shape or form.

On Cockers ... the reason they are so popular is because what do you see when you open up an APG or other paintball magazine covering tournaments? Cockers. Because of how many pro's use them, they automatically gain popularity because most people just joining the sport want to be good off the bat so run out and get a cocker, mess with it causing it to break, then throw it away. Another thing is after everyone has a cocker, they automatically become the gun to have, because, of course, everyone has one.

[AGD]

SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

[Top Secret]

From a design standpoint, the aforementioned electros(angel, timmy, etc) all use the principle of a stacked tube, but use a electronically controlled air switch similar to the 4-way on a cocker to move the bolt and hammer instead of a sear/spring/hammer combo. So they basically do share the same features as the blowbacks. The cocker definatly falls into a different group because of the duel use of the trigger to control the ram and the release of the hammer. If the bolt were linked to the hammer, then it would be in the same group as the others. But I also believe that air way switch and hammer combo is where the thing that slows the other guns down, allowing the mags to blow them away speedwise.

As for why are cockers popular? You got me. Every time I go to the field I see some cocker with a leak somewhere. Granted my teammates Black Magic and 2k2 cockers work alright, but I still swear by my uber-reliable Emag which has not had a single problem short of a broken nubbin.

Cockers do get alot more "media coverage" than mags do. In one of my copies of facefull, I saw one mag. A black SFL E-mag being shot by a member of Aftershock(which to the uninitiated looks like an angel of some kind). Other than that, cockers, angels, and the occational timmy.




Plus I think there is some sort of hypnotic noise generated by cockers that makes you want to buy one after hearing it shoot.

[Dubstar112]

In my preception, the effective speed of a marker is what most people look at. By this I mean, how fast a gun can shoot with out having paint problems. People generally think of higher pressure guns as having these paint problems... You have to have idiot proof marketing skills for them people who dont understand the accuracy difference between LP and higher pressure guns..(squinting eh? Well you should know there is no difference)

Blow backs have kick, and are kinda crude in some ways, where as an autococker is refined by every single upgraded item(ram, x-way lpr, hammer ect..).

If somone tried hard enough, and put enough research into a gun, I bet they could come up with a blow back gun that felt like an Angel or Autococker, or any thing expensive.:)

Stereotypes, guns are stereotyped more than is imaginable. Every day of play I hear "Beginners gun" atleast 40 times. Beginners gun? Blowback? Pump? BKO? Automag? Angel? Ive seen beginners start out with every type of gun, and no more one than the others.

[edit..] I reviewed my own post, and I asked my self what really separates one style of gun from another?

[thei3ug]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

That is a LOADED question.

I can fire a typhoon or blazer MUCH faster than I can fire any angel. That's besides the point apparently.

But looks and customization play a BIG part in perceived speed. Of course no one here wants to believe that so give it up. Looks have nothing to do why people buy Camaros. I mean, they're slower, and not that much cheaper than a corvette...

Angels are popular because they're electros AND they're good looking AND they have the highest amount of garbage you can do to them.

[FatMan]

That's right

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

I think you are right, actually. I think the first thing that made the electros so cool was the trigger - people want their trigger to be the lightest and smallest possible, without fear of short-stroking. Theoretically, an electronic trigger gives you that, if you set it up right. Personally I HATE electronic triggers. My favorite trigger was on my BBT Typhoon - except I always short-stroked an bad times. My RT-Mag is pretty close, and I never short stroke. That's why I like it.

Certainly noone wants to feel like the speed of the marker hinders them, but most high-end markers shoot fast enough, and the rest is BS.

The biggest selling point in paintball is hype - marketing sex, coolness, the next big thing - and all that. Its like stereo equipment, I remember when amps went from 0.1% THD to 0.001% THD - like anyone can tell the difference! Yeah, maybe if you are doing professional recordings. PB is in a similar place - 150psi, 30bps, 1g 1mm trigger pull, full auto - none of that stuff matters when it comes to playing paintball - its all about who has the coolest marker in the staging area, who has the biggest d**k!

Tom, yours is one of the few companies that has consistently focused on engineering - and you have a bunch of loyal followers because of that. The only way to go beyond that is to focus on marketing - because you have DONE the technical superiority. Of course, you risk losing some of that technical superiority with marketing. *I* hope you just keep on as you are, but I understand you have to keep your business going.

I like the fact that AGD has taken the high road. In truth I think WGP and Palmer and some others are also pretty straight-up about their products - they are well engineered and moderately well marketed. The question is how much of the hype game are you going to play - and why are we discussing the hype game in Deep Blue ???

But in the end, its not technical superiority that the market is following, any more than it does in cars, electronics, software, or anything else - its hype.

FatMan

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by AGD
SO if it really is about looks and customization then rate of fire really has nothing to do with it. Electro was only popular because it was cool not because it shot fast?

AGD

Ooooh a chance for me to spout off on sociological trends!

I believe paintball equipment follows much the same path as say mobile communications.

Years ago pagers were insanely expensive and were only used by people like surgeons who truly NEEDED them. The difference in time that the pager saved could've meant life or death. People saw this and attributed a sort of importance persona to the pager itself, just because of who initially accepted and embraced the product. Then by purchasing the same product they believe that the same aura of importance (or expertise) is attriubted to them.

It's kind of like apparent neccessity.


**EDIT** Ok so that was a worthless, off topic post. I submit that we start with the three main valves and draw up a sort of a tree with the related families. Any Objections?

[cheetah256]

i too, got tired with all of the guns on the field looking the same, hence the reason i bought a nova.... it really does function very strangely. its basically a cocker, but instead of the 4 way pushing the pump arm back and forth, it pushes the barrel...somehow, they also milled the 3 way into the delrin breech of the gun, which is why you don't see any external pneumatics. i'm still working on figuring out how the trigger works, its all pneumatic, and somehow the air released by pushing the trigger causes the spool to open and allow the dump chamber to dump...

[sniper1rfa]

the way i see it is that its a big-*** popularity contest, the more people like one gun, the mroe people wll start liking that gun. that probably accounts for 50% of gun purchases. then 25% is hype, and the last bit is personal preference. does it matter? the good guns will be popular. cockers rock, angels rock, mags are cool, but they can get troublesome (though they will never actually cease to function).

[dmonahan]

Tom,
You hit the nail on the head. It is vert much about how a marker feels and how it can be personalized. Just look at the markers that are currently hot seller right now

How many differant ways can you purches a cocker, imp or angel. Peaple like to sand out and be differant.

I've grown up in the auto/motorcycle ind. and have seen it all my life. I've had many markers and there is very littel differance between all the highend marker as far as preformance. It all comes down to feel and the ability to make it your own.

Side note. Support also. I loved my e-mag and I am drolling over the extreem but dag-it we need some better west coast support!!

[mag-nanamus]

People want the latest and greatest. To show off the newest and hottest. Mag is near perfect as is, even most after market parts improve nothing and often create problems. Cocker owners like to improve thier guns. It's just like souping up an engine. "Hey Joey! Look at this Holley double pumper I just put in! I believe electro's are popular for the same reason pagers are, "Look, it tells me how many beers are left in my cooler!"

[Colin Thompson]

The Angel, Impulse, Intimidator, Bushmaster or even the Cocker?? Seems to me they are more alike than different.

Tom, do you throw out these things just to get a reaction? I think you do it and then giggle:)

It took a long time, but I found where all my old friends post about things arcane. I see Doc and Glenn Palmer and Tom here.

It's been a long time since I had to think these deep thoughts, but Tom's story about getting more shots from a PGP was priceless. Now my job is fairly boring.

It's good to see you here. I'll check in regularly.