Crossfire Regs

[Koosh]

Re: Got it, here is a quick subjective review...

Originally posted by cledford
Oh, BTW the system did not ship with ANY documentation at all. Nothing in writing about the performance claims or even a set of instructions. It did have a warrantee card enclosed.

-Calvin

Where did you buy your tank from? I got mine from Mike at county paintball, and it came a LOT better than what you describe... No scratches, and it was packedged WAY nicer than you describe... maybe Crossfire is spending too much time developing their products, not getting their straight to customer business up and ready!

after about 3 months of use, my crossfire is still doing great! hell, I haven't even had to change the O-Ring on it! Maybe they just don't like you...

[Coaster]

could a flatline 4.5k and a Dyanflow be tested. Dynaflow said on this new reg would fluctuate 1/4 of the other regs(which they call the other best HPA systems) tested when on full auto. Dynaflow was ~50psi and others were ~200psi

[BlackVCG]

You know, I think JUST about everyone out there claims their system has best recharge rate/output consistency.

Take a look at ACI's ad for their BullDog System.

They claim:

Flow Rate - Fastest Available

Drop-Off Tolerance - Flatlined

Output Consistency - +/-0.0000

Now I've also seen ads for the WDP Air claiming it will never spike and it's so consistent that you can run it without a secondary front reg.

I'm sure there's others out there that claim to have the best reg. out there.

It's no doubt that the Crossfire reg. does recharge very fast, but is it the fastest? I know that's what we're trying to find out here, but I think with most of the manufacturers claiming to have the fastest system, I think this project should turn into just finding out which system is the fastest and have a basis on how we define fastest.

I'll draw out some ideas on how we should test the systems tomorrow.

[FreshmanBob]

alot of thats advertising gimmics

for instance
+/- 0.000 0.000 what?! they don't say psi or even give a unit, its just garble.

Same with flow rate, flow rate of what? Gas into or out of the tank?

As far as running a tank without a secondary reg you can do that with any tank! it might not be consistant but you can.

Also when are you guys gonna actually do some tests?

[BlackVCG]

I realize it's advertising gimmicks, but they're claiming the same thing as Crossfire and other manufacturers. Crossfire is the ONLY company to compare their system to others by showing a test.

Yes, any tank can be run without a secondary reg., but the AIR claims to be so consistant that there's no need for a secondary reg. That's what I was pointing at.

We'll do some tests once we setup a guideline for how we'll conduct the tests. I suppose we'll have to have someone with the test equipment and get them the tanks we plan on testing.

[nerobro]

When testing the 30bps dragun last friday we discovered something. We were using the older crossfire regs, the brass ones... Well they were unable to keep up with the dragun. The hyperflow screw in was cappable of keeping up with the dragun.

Just something to think about ;-) WE really need to get these regs on a bench and test them.

[the123]

HMM.. you should tell Dennis that. Right after you showed it at the orgy on co2. I left and didn't see you put the air on it. I saw him right after that and he said that wasn't possible with compressed air... i'm sure he'd be happy that it WAS possible and with his regulator. Well done.

[nerobro]

I'll call him today ;-)

[cledford]

Testing suggestions...

OK guys, I've got the new crossfire system so it's time to get started with the testing. I REALLY NEED some detailed input/ideas specifically from the other round table members. Here are my suggestions regarding the test. The first is the easiest and most logical. I did not come up with this on my own, but think it is a great way to get started. The other 2 suggestions I have would not be as direct and would only be useful as extra validation of the primary test.

Test 1. Take an ASA adapter and mount a high quality (i.e.. not paintball quality) gauge. Drill a small hole in the ASA adapter to vent the gas and then just screw in the bottle. The output displayed on the gauge will show the flow rate. To test drop-off we would need to be able to block the small hole, then open it instantly. This would show us the pre-flow pressure, then upon open would show the drop off (if any) and flow. We can then compare several system's flows to see where Crossfire sits. Even adjustable systems could be checked - I've got an ASA to 1/8 NPT adapter - all you need to do is to put a QD fitting on it. The key when comparing systems is to insure that they all start out with similar output.

The simplest way to control the vent hole would be to install some sort of needle valve. (I need suggestions where to find these, McMaster Carr?) A different idea I had was to cobble together something using common paintball fittings found in a tool box. (At least mine) First, take an ASA adapter. Mine has 2 output ports. Get the high quality gauge (there is a link to gauges elsewhere in this thread) and put it into one port. (My ASA has 2.) I have an instant on/off valve threaded for 1/8npt I bought at a hardware store. I used to use it as an on/off for my Retro valve. It has male threads on one side, female on the other. Put the male threads into ASA. Take a 1/8npt port plug and drill the small hole into it. Put the plug into the female side of on/off fitting. Screw in the tank and open the valve. My idea is isn't neat but should work. Care would have to be taken to insure the on/off is not a bottleneck. Mine actually has a larger I/D then stainless hose which I think will be OK. I can post a digital pic of it - hopefully tonight.

Test 2. Take a gun that has full auto and fire it over a CED chronograph with a "high-quality" air source. (SCUBA would be cool also) Record and graph the shot strings. Then do the same with the marker connected to the Crossfire. Record shot strings and graph. Compare shootdown - if any exists.

Test 3. We need a bone stock angel with all settings put back to normal factory defaults. Run the Crossfire test. We can use an oil gauge first to accurately recreate their setup. If there is any difference (as Doc Nickel noted) they can be confronted about changing around the settings on the gun. We can also try the same test a second time using a non-oil filled gauge to illustrate the (or lack there of...) dampening effect.

We should focus on the first test. IF we can generate enough interest in the matter it is reasonable to go the next step further to rig up an electronic system to analyze the recharge curve. I would need help with this.

Let me know what you think,

-Calvin

[nerobro]

the only thing tha's really important is the recharge curve... with that one graph we could know. The test would take a few secconds and all the questions would be answered.

As for covering the claims of crossfire... A tank will contain a certian amount of energy, the regulator can not affect the amount of energy stored in a tank. So you can't magically get more shots from a tank by changing the regulator.

As for any other question.. we need to just get it on a dyno and read what it says.

[cledford]

2 things. I like the dyno idea, but...

We need to develop tests that average Joes can recreate themselves. Second, who's dyno? Can we build our own?

I think Tom's idea for this place is to not just dispell hype, but to teach ourselves and others how to do it for themselves.

Anyhow, I would be interested in using your dyno.

-Calvin

[cledford]

Example...

I found this which is an example of the valve I have at home. The differences are:

1. this one is 1/4npt, mine is 1/8
2. This one is only rated to 400psi I don't even know how many mine is rated for

I used mine on a Air America Raptor that was susposed to be set at ~800psi output without any problems - but that doesn't make it safe.

Anyhow, just an example of what I was suggesting.

They've got some cool Transmitter/Transducers there also.

-Calvin

[Redkey]

lots of questions....

To have any useful data at least five crossfire regs would have to be tested. Testing just one is interesting... but you have no idea how it compares to the next one off the assembly line.

How is the roundtable supposed to work.

How is a test procedure decided on?
Who is supposed to do all this testing?
Will the owners of Crossfire Regs be willing to send them to a third party for testing?
Would any of the manufactures of the equipment be willing provide samples for testing to a thrid party?
How would the third party be decided on? How many people have the money, time or experience to put together a decent test setup. How will the quality of the third party data be verified?

Where will the test procedures be documented? Will the data be posted somewhere or will the person running the tests just say that A was better than B?

It's a nifty idea and if it works the way it's supposed to... vendors might not be so quick to make boastful statements they have not proven.

[spantol]

Redkey:

I've got a spare 88cu 4500psi Crossfire system that I won't be needing any time soon. I'd be more than happy to donate it to science for as long as you guys need it.

If you folks are interested, just give me an address, and it'll be on its way.

[Redkey]

whoa... now there is a trusting soul!

Thanks... but, right now I am not setup to really test anything. My test setup is sitting in boxes ready to be assembled. The only reason I haven't put much time into building/finishing it is that once I have tested all my stuff I don't have easy access to any other gear. My gear is limited to autocockers, which, while interesting, represents only a small segment of the markers out there.

How do other people feel about sending their gear off to be tested by a third party with established credibilty and or references?

Again, thanks for the offer. I'll keep it in mind.