Replacing the on/off valve with an electro mechanical solenoid?

[warbeak2099]

Don't know if this has been though of yet, but I was pondering ways to get rid of the sear in a mag. Here's my idea. Replace the on/off valve with a small, pull-type electromagnetic solenoid. In this first picture we see the solenoid in resting position and the gun ready to fire:



The next picture shows the solenoid pulling down, allowing the gas to enter the dump chamber, push the bolt forward, and propel the ball:



Might I actually have something here? I understand this would require extensive modification to the valve body and there would have to be a solenoid that is small enough to fit in there. However, given those factors are fulfilled, might this design actually work? Are there any reasons why it wouldn't?

[Nick E]

Psh, stealin mah ideas, lol.
And you wouldn't necessarily have to fit it into that hole, you could just have a plug that has hose barbs on it, one going out and one going in...Course, you'd need to have such huge flow or such high pressure it really isn't feasible..Now, it you kept the first part of the sear and created a hybrid where the gun is controlled by both, it would be interesting..

EDIT: another idea would be to have constant flow to the pressure chamber, and simply control the bolt with a ram like lovecraft suggested. I think it'd be similar to a matrix and an ION combined..Or just dual noids, running independently, which should also work.

[warbeak2099]

Yes you could just use a ram or pull noid to let go of the bolt.

I don't understand the other thing you said though. If you did use a pull type noid, what is this barb business?

[p8ntbal4me]

Someone else on the AO is kinda doing this behind closed doors.

So with that said I will tell you what your idea has good and bad points on so you can take this a bit furthur if you like.

Your idea for the noid to run the on/off is correct. It would work really well.

Here is the problem with your idea and kinda what I ran into with my own product (which is completely different)

The AGD valve is a good valve because it slides on and out into the main body as one piece.
It also allows very little room for exterior mounted wires or parts between the frame rail or body. So when you think of your ideas, try to imagine that you do ABSOLUTELY no modification to the gun except a part replacement.

Reason being said is that if you made this thing a real object, you would sell more of these if it was a drop in unit. I have been building a mag add on that is completely drop it to any mag and it will sell because its in high demand and it requires no machining.

This is like a base line,... so try to think on this level. Your idea is good. Just keep in mind what woudl sell it too!

The other thing you have to worry about is the bolt. Im not going to suggest much here,.. but if you can,.. think on the application of how a Racegun frame works its sear and hammer lug setup with the noid. The mag sear is a "latch" of sorts. Even though the sear and bolt push horizontally together,... the sear still drops vertically to allow the bolt to release. This means that the sear needs more pressure applied to "actuate". If you were to cause the sear to drop horizontally (i know it makes NO sense in words physics wise, but go find a racegun inernal picture and you will see it clear) the pressure required is so small you gain cycle time, battery life, etc.

Last thing is space. Your going to gain space due to the sear being gone. You need to concider what frames you can fit this thing in too. Not all frames are the same space alloted from the top so you need to look into what maximum alloted space you can work with.

Again,... Ive been through this with my product. It takes alot of research and time to figure this out.


Not trying to turn you off to the idea,... because its one I thought of myself and I would love to see someone do it.

Hope you can use some of this info.

[Pneumagger]

I've had my senior design project to build an electro pneumatic MAG VALVE replacement approved. The solenoid to run the valve should be able to fit in the space saved by not needing a sear.

It will rock

[Lenny]

Why do you need a sear? You could just have the on/off valve closed at rest so the bolt spring keeps the bolt back, but when firing, a dwell time will keep the on/off valve open long enough to push the bolt forward and release the air. Then it will close and the spring will hold the bolt back.

Just a thought.

And Joe, you HAVE to let me see the progress of this project!

[Pneumagger]

Why do you need a sear? You could just have the on/off valve closed at rest so the bolt spring keeps the bolt back, but when firing, a dwell time will keep the on/off valve open long enough to push the bolt forward and release the air. Then it will close and the spring will hold the bolt back.

Just a thought.

And Joe, you HAVE to let me see the progress of this project!

that method won't work. you have to have the air stored in the dump chamber to be rapidly released. There is just not enough flow through the on/off to push the bolt forward and then fire the ball quickly. I'm sure you fire the gun like that, but I'd be surprised if you got anywhere close to even 200fps.

[y0da900]

that method won't work. you have to have the air stored in the dump chamber to be rapidly released. There is just not enough flow through the on/off to push the bolt forward and then fire the ball quickly. I'm sure you fire the gun like that, but I'd be surprised if you got anywhere close to even 200fps.

Doesn't the mag valve regulator cut flow after pressure build up after past the on-off? If so, you would need an additional regulator to control pressure in this method, aside from having to overcome the flow rate limitation through the on-off.

[Pneumagger]

Doesn't the mag valve regulator cut flow after pressure build up after past the on-off? If so, you would need an additional regulator to control pressure in this method, aside from having to overcome the flow rate limitation through the on-off.

Not sure what you mean, but the regulator of a classic valve would the PSI behind the on/off @ 350ish(?) all the time.

I'm not sure about an RT valve.

[Pneumagger]

I think what he meant was that this might be a step in the right direction for AGD. Making a change to the mag valve to make it completely searless. Of course they might have to change the design or make a new valve to accomodate this. People want something new out of AGD. If they could produce a new mag valve with a new or modified design, coupled with a new looking body/rail, they might actually break back into the popular scene. I think a name change would be appropriate too. Maybe the name "mag" would also have to go with the sear.

Just speculating though. I can't read minds...

I am intrigued with what Pneumagger is doing. You say you can do it without modifying anything? Where did you find a noid that small??? Please keep us apprised of this project, maybe even TK would be interested lol. Or that Zupey.

What you refer to is called the MQ Valve. It is a piloted valve (more or less on/off) with the raw flow to fire a paintball. The DW Aedes was an MQ powered blow forward - just like the mag I think your envisioning. Unfortunately, The Aedes project was scrapped due to patent restrictions and PBX's lack of existence.

I am not modifying anything on the valve... I'm designing a whole new one with the same form factor of an valve body so it can fit into the mag as a drop in upgrade. There will be no sear for it as it is electropneumatic. there will ba solenoid that sits where the sear used to in completely milled out rail.

Also, I doubt AGD would be interested in entering the electro market again. Plus, if this actually works the first time around I'll be astounded. The designs and forces work out on paper - but predicting and designing for ultra high pressure flow is more of a trial by fire method - whih i only have enough time/money to do one prototype for. And since it's still the mag platform, efficiency can't change much aside from eliminating the minor head losses (which are insignificant).

/helluva ninja edit BOHICA

[y0da900]

Not sure what you mean, but the regulator of a classic valve would the PSI behind the on/off @ 350ish(?) all the time.

I'm not sure about an RT valve.

It is the RT that I'm thinking of.

http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/automag_rt.wmv

It looks like from that animation, that the regulator is taken out of the equaiton until pressure starts to climb in the chamber. I thought that was the main reason that insanely high pressures in an RT can lead to such bounce, as it is unregulated pressure at the on-off, then the reg slams off the airflow when the pressure in the chamber climbs to a certain point. The high pressure allows it to flow in faster and essentially "slam fill" the dump chamber for faster recharge rates.

[havocx]

Also, I doubt AGD would be interested in entering the electro market again. Plus, if this actually works the first time around I'll be astounded. The designs and forces work out on paper - but predicting and designing for ultra high pressure flow is more of a trial by fire method - whih i only have enough time/money to do one prototype for. And since it's still the mag platform, efficiency can't change much aside from eliminating the minor head losses (which are insignificant).

/helluva ninja edit BOHICA

You had better watch what you say as your adding the words electronic into your design.
If you go to produce that you many have a law suit from smart parts on your hands.

[Zneaky]

I may be crazy, but I think you all are designing this wrong:

I believe in the rest mode, the on/off IS allowing flow. The sear is just stopping the bolt from moving.

Then in fire mode the on/off CLOSES OFF the air flow and the air already behind the bolt pushes the bold and is released to the paintball. Since the on/off is in the Closed position, the spring can return the bolt and start again.

If your solenoid opens at fire, one ball will fire, the bolt will remain foward and all the air in the tank will flow out until the tank is empty.

Besides your solenoid replacing the on/off. You need to design something to hold the bolt back like the sear does currently. It has to be timed to release the same time the soleniod closed the flow.


Tell me if I'm way off here.


Z

[surfbum]

I believe in the rest mode, the on/off IS allowing flow. The sear is just stopping the bolt from moving.

Then in fire mode the on/off CLOSES OFF the air flow and the air already behind the bolt pushes the bold and is released to the paintball. Since the on/off is in the Closed position, the spring can return the bolt and start again.

you are correct

[Pneumagger]

I may be crazy, but I think you all are designing this wrong:


Z

Your absolutely right. That's why I'm doing away with the sear and AGD on/off all together.