The state of our economy...

[maxama10]

Hell, if all I cared about was having a secure job during an economic crisis I would become a drug dealer.

Useful post + 0

[maxama10]

whoever said the thing about going to school for something useful -- very excellent point. was going to make it myself.

that said, it's really not extremely difficult to get yourself thru school. people will scream and yell about the cost of tuition, which -can- be high. however, my 4 year accredited institution currently costs about $10,500/yr in tuition. Which, if you were to stay there for all four years would be under 45k [and that includes a tuition increase].

However, one could also choose to go to a 2 yr school for half their education. The one near me runs about $300 a class, or about $3000 a year. So, 2 years of that and two years of my school is under 30k.

$30,000 for a 4 year degree is NOT bad. I will be earning all of my tuition money back in the first year of employment. I'm an almost-accountant [graduating in May] and my job is going to be paying me $50,000 with all the benefits [and all the garbage of tax season] plus paying for my masters. So my initial $40,000 investment [that's what education is, folks] is going to go quite far for me.

Oh, did I mention I paid for everything working at Starbucks 20-25 hr/wk at about $10.50 hr [rough average I guess] and with minimal [bout 6k] loans. Also busted butt and am graduating in 7 semesters, which further drives down my costs.

It's doable. Very doable. Might take some sacrifices, will take hard work, but you can do it and improve your quality of life substantially. Hell, you can even do it online.

Cool, my sister did the same thing, shes currently working for a firm out of NC doing auditing, the masters degree really opened a lot of door for her.

Good luck to you!

[Lenny]

"...We don't run Washington and no one really does.
Ask not what you can do for your country,
Ask what your country did to you.

Sex, drugs, God, cash, America.

The only reason you're still alive is because someone
Has decided to let you live.

We owe so much money we're not broke, we're broken.
We're so poor we can't even pay attention.

So what do you want?
You want to be famous, and rich, and happy,
But you're terrified you have nothing to offer this world;
Nothing to say and no way to say it,
But you can say it in three languages.

You are more than the sum of what you consume.
Desire is not an occupation.
You are ultimately thrilled and desperate;
Skyhigh and f****d.
Let's stop praying for someone to save us and start saving ourselves.
Let's stop this and start over.
Let's go out - Let's keep going.

Sex, drugs, god, cash, America...

...Quit whining you haven't done anything wrong
Because quite frankly you haven't done much of anything..."

"Dogma" by KMFDM

[MANN]

Are those your only expenses? How about your ... insurance, retirement, savings, leisure, etc. Then throw in a freak accident, illness, natural disaster or economic freakout in your area ... suddenly it's all a house of cards. Should a kid be an impossibility for you?

lol. I wish those were my only expenses. I have car, house, and health ins. I try put back 4% of my paycheck to my roth IRA (It is self controlled. IE my employer does not do it for me I usually make 2 deposits a year). I play hockey, and that is not cheap (~800 a year). I play paintball ~ once every 5 weeksish, and that is not cheap. My housing expenses are kinda high as the house I purchased needed ALOT of work (~30k to date).

Again you are listing excuses to NOT work. The reason I make it sound so easy is because it is. If you work hard you can play hard.

[Lohman446]

Mann, the funny thing is in college I used to beleive in the 24hr day also. I actually used most of them between college, work, kenpo, partying, and the gym.

The fact of the matter is I could not have sustained that lifestyle in a reasonably healthy manner for a multitude of reasons.

Now I'm a single parent. My childs needs (a reasonable schedule) dictate a lot of what I do.

And before I hear anything about lazy or "should have stayed in college" I work 50+hrs a week or more and make good money, am in the middle of a house renovation, its not a money complaint. However, don't get into the "I can do it so anyone who can't is just lazy" mind set. While I agree the majority of our social services are handed to people who do not truley need them I do not underestimate how hard it is for at least some good hard working people to make ends meet.

[punkncat]

So, many people are just saying work harder, go to school. It's your own fault if you aren't succeeding. A very "Boortz" point of view you have there. Let us discuss for a moment an alternate reality that some of you obviously have never experianced.

In years past, people with no cash in hand to go to school, or no particular proficiency for being a student could learn a skill, a trade and make a good living. Back several years ago the construction trades made very good money. I personally watched master tradesmen go from making $25+ and hour back years ago, to nowdays where they make $15 IF they are lucky. This is for the same skill level. The cost of living has gotten no less. There are many other trades to be considered like auto workers, airline mechanics, even "lower" down the scale consider mill workers that due to outsourcing, migrant workers, cutbacks, automation, many other factors, are gone or going away. I am sure there are many other examples.

Looking at it simply, the blame could easily be put right on those individual people for never aspiring to be more, getting an education, etc. etc.....Let us consider for just a moment how long many of these fields have been rock solid and great ways to earn a living. But all of them, who have lost their job due to things outside their control, that can't work because there is no work to be done, or simply can't live on the wage they can earn in that field, or it's replacement, currently...they are all lazy, right?
It is also a fact that not every person capable of say, rebuilding a cars engine with their hands is actually capable of rebuilding a computer. Not everyone is going to be an IT tech, or an accountant, or "rocket scientist" as it were.

Lets consider another direct example, the cost of fuel. One of our easily suggested corrections was that we skip McDonalds on tuesday to pay for the extra fuel cost. That sounds feasible doesn't it? So the three dollars that saved not eating at McD's just payed for...wait, less than one gallon of gas? Well what if I am already driving an economical car? What if I am not lead footed? Oh snap!

So along that same line...over the past few years fuel cost has more than doubled. This is a direct expense that we see reflected in every single thing that comes to market. Added surcharges for service work, higher expenses for everyone at (once again) a rate substantially higher than anyone's pay has increased. As a matter of fact, these higher prices have caused some easily cited companies to ask employee's to make concessions in pay and benifits. Caused companies to cut corners in service.
Using the trucker example alone. When you consider that fuel is one of the major expenses they face, and that expense has more that doubled over a six or so year period. A truck that takes how many gallons to fill and by no means is economical on that same fuel costing over $4 a gallon. Who do you think is shouldering that expense?

So these same people that earned a good living in now unviable or less profitable fields are having to make corrections, no doubt. But in the mean time, having no job, or a lesser paying/ less profitable job does not change the fact that the house note is going unpaid.
How does a person go to school when there is no money to pay the basic bills?
What if spending time with the wife and kids and not married to a job has some value and consideration? Priced daycare lately?
Let us consider even further the people who are already narrowed down to the minimum. Is it so hard to consider that there REALLY ARE hard working and honest Americans that simply do not make everything they need to get by when inflation and prices are so far outpacing pay increases?


I know I rambled a bit, but I think its a bit unrealistic to just pigeonhole EVERY person who is facing financial hardship as being lazy or unmotivated. I think it is great that so many people have experianced the success and positive experiance within their profession as to not be able to even comprehend this as a reality.

[Lohman446]

I love the "get an education" crowd

At some point we have to wake up. You have to be in a business that provides a product or a service at a profit for it to be sustainable.

[maxama10]

I love the "get an education" crowd

At some point we have to wake up. You have to be in a business that provides a product or a service at a profit for it to be sustainable.

That is more or less what I was trying to say, not everyone needs to go to college, especially if you're going to major in a less than likely to succeed profession, or if you really have no idea at all what you want to do.

There are kids in my grade who want to go to school just to drink. They say outright they have no idea what they want to do. Just party.

It my belief that instead of going to college and getting some BS degree they should go learn a valuable trade etc... something they can actually use. Where are degrees that provide little job market sustainable, especially when people flock in droves to get that same degree?

I have friends who haven't gone to college, I don't think it is for everyone, and they're doing just fine.


*plays Blue Collar Man by Styx*


Punkcat: I don't think that was directed towards me? I will respond though, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that some people are victim of circumstance and don't want to make scapegoats out of anyone. I do however believe that certain people should have prepared better for their future.

I see my peers and I understand that some have less than desirable lives at home but that excuses nothing, instead of going out and "tagging" or drinking or other stupid things half of them do they could do something productive and then my town wouldn't be full of welfare people. There are opportunities at the school, you just have to seize them. We have an excellent AG program and several students have gone on to places like WyoTech or Cashman CAT etc...

I just think if we could educate the youth, half of who are extremely naive(at least in my school), we could solve some problems before they begin. How to do that I have no idea!


-Max

[robnix]

Yes you are correct. It is hard to live making less than 14 dollars an hour. I currently make less than 14 dollars an hour, and my wife makes less than 10 an hour

How do I survive? I pay for my own college(and my wifes), I pay for my own car (and my wifes), I have had a 30 yr mortgage on my house for the past 3 years, and am currently scheduled to have it payed off in 6 years (yes 1/3 of the scheduled time if we continue at the rate we are going). I get no gov assistance, and little family assistance. My wife will have her masters in less than one year, and my schooling.... its going.

I will share a secret with everyone
Monday has 24 hours
Tuesday has 24 hours
Wednesday has 24 hours
Thursday has 24 hours
Friday has 24 hours
Saturday has 24 hours
Sunday has 24 hours

In any given week there are 168 hours

Why is it that people think that they should only work less than 25% of their life, and live like a king? I am sorry, but anyone who only works less than 25% of the week should not complain about their standard of living.

Not trying to be harsh, but your views are a bit centric and sound a lot like mine did when I was your age.

Real Estate prices in Knoxville are about 1/4 to a 1/3 of what they are in my neck of the woods, and I live 45 miles from Seattle where houses are relatively cheap for the area. If you and your wife made less than a combined $24.00 an hour here, you'd be renting or you'd own a house in a pretty ****ty neighborhood, but even the 3bd/1.5ba we sold in one of those a few years ago is going for over $300,000 now. I could double my lot size, square footage, and add a few bedrooms and bathrooms by moving there.

It's also a LOT easier to do what you're doing without kids, dogs simply aren't a valid comparison. My 5 year old needs a minimum of 2 hrs a day of my time. That's just for basic daily activities like getting ready for daycare in the morning, eating dinner together in the evening, and then spending some time on a small project or a book or just playing outside. Add in Teeball, going to the park, swimming lessons, etc...children are much more demanding mentally, physically, and fiscally than a dog will ever be.

Let me know when your dog asks you why the moon is following the car.

Time? 11 hours a day are gone to commute and work. Add in the 2 hours for the kid, and an hour to myself, time for the wife, and time to sleep, and the day is gone.

You're young too. When I was that age I worked 8-16 hours a day in kitchens, (in knoxville even), went out just about every night, and did it getting 4-5 hours of sleep most days of the week. Now that I'm a bit older I just can't do it anymore. I'd be surprised if you could too, especially once you have kids.

[robnix]

Studies and the word MOST

Using the word studies and the word most without any verifiable data to back it up make any point you had moot.




























thanks for giving me an excuse to use the word MOOT!

[MANN]

So, many people are just saying work harder, go to school. It's your own fault if you aren't succeeding. A very "Boortz" point of view you have there. Let us discuss for a moment an alternate reality that some of you obviously have never experianced.

Going to school does you absolutely nothing. Everyone goes to school for 12 years, and not everyone is educated. Learning is what is important. It doesnt matter if it is the University of X, if it is you reading every night for 2 hours about how to correctly install mufflers, reading the manual on how to flip burgers, or if you are being an aprintice to a iron worker (wow I obviously failed spelling). What you are hopefully doing is Learning. There is no employer out there that wants to teach their employees what to do. I would guess that over 70% of college students get a degree, and have not learned a single thing. Formal education is not nessary to make a living. Education (as in the form of learning) is absoultely nessary to earn a living. The only thing college will assist in is showing determination, and may open a door or two.

In years past, people with no cash in hand to go to school, or no particular proficiency for being a student could learn a skill, a trade and make a good living. Back several years ago the construction trades made very good money. I personally watched master tradesmen go from making $25+ and hour back years ago, to nowdays where they make $15 IF they are lucky. This is for the same skill level. The cost of living has gotten no less. There are many other trades to be considered like auto workers, airline mechanics, even "lower" down the scale consider mill workers that due to outsourcing, migrant workers, cutbacks, automation, many other factors, are gone or going away. I am sure there are many other examples.

skilled mechanics are by means "low" on the scale. I know 2-3 mechanics that clear 100k(before taxes) a year while some of the mechanical and chemical engineers are doing good to make 80k (before taxes). It is all about being "the best"

Anyways. People have to keep with the times. You need to continue learning/your education. Any mechanic can fix a 82 chevy pickup, but many wouldnt know what to do with a 2006 (other than whine because they have electronics). Times change, and they are going to continue to change. People need to realize that if they want to make a good living they have to adapt.

Looking at it simply, the blame could easily be put right on those individual people for never aspiring to be more, getting an education, etc. etc.....Let us consider for just a moment how long many of these fields have been rock solid and great ways to earn a living. But all of them, who have lost their job due to things outside their control, that can't work because there is no work to be done, or simply can't live on the wage they can earn in that field, or it's replacement, currently...they are all lazy, right?
It is also a fact that not every person capable of say, rebuilding a cars engine with their hands is actually capable of rebuilding a computer. Not everyone is going to be an IT tech, or an accountant, or "rocket scientist" as it were.

Again only the strong will survive. you have to learn to adapt, and learn more skills. Yes those fields have been rock solid for years, and before that being a cowboy was a great profession.

You can not tell me that a human being is not capible of learning one skill.

Lets consider another direct example, the cost of fuel. One of our easily suggested corrections was that we skip McDonalds on tuesday to pay for the extra fuel cost. That sounds feasible doesn't it? So the three dollars that saved not eating at McD's just payed for...wait, less than one gallon of gas? Well what if I am already driving an economical car? What if I am not lead footed? Oh snap!

kudos to you. I cannot eat at Mcdonalds for less than 6 dollars. I only eat out on thursdays so that is my example. I am sure many people could rent one less movie, or buy one less pack of cigrettes.

So these same people that earned a good living in now unviable or less profitable fields are having to make corrections, no doubt. But in the mean time, having no job, or a lesser paying/ less profitable job does not change the fact that the house note is going unpaid.
How does a person go to school when there is no money to pay the basic bills?
What if spending time with the wife and kids and not married to a job has some value and consideration? Priced daycare lately?
Let us consider even further the people who are already narrowed down to the minimum. Is it so hard to consider that there REALLY ARE hard working and honest Americans that simply do not make everything they need to get by when inflation and prices are so far outpacing pay increases?

There are defiently descisions & sackrifises (again spelling ) that have to be made. Everyone has problems it is what you do with those problems that define you/your lifestyle.

Daycare here is 45 dollars a week for k-5 (during the school year 2:30 -6)
Durring the summer it is 95 a week (k-5 7am - 6pm)
For children 3-5 it is 115 a week. and i am not sure what the younger ones are
(I was raised in daycare, and helped with the books for my mom for ~ 3-4 years.)

Yes there are Hard working americians that have problems with inflation. This is life. Blaming ones "hard" life on the government/economy IMO is pointless. Most of these people are just wanting to complain instead of working.

I know I rambled a bit, but I think its a bit unrealistic to just pigeonhole EVERY person who is facing financial hardship as being lazy or unmotivated. I think it is great that so many people have experianced the success and positive experiance within their profession as to not be able to even comprehend this as a reality.

I think that reply would count as rambling as well. No not EVERY person who is facing financial hardship is lazy or unmotivated, but I do believe that 90% of them are. There are too many stupid people in the world that make 100s of thousands of dollars to say that you yourself cant do the same thing.

/end rant. Back to work.

[MANN]

Real Estate prices in Knoxville are about 1/4 to a 1/3 of what they are in my neck of the woods, and I live 45 miles from Seattle where houses are relatively cheap for the area. If you and your wife made less than a combined $24.00 an hour here, you'd be renting or you'd own a house in a pretty ****ty neighborhood, but even the 3bd/1.5ba we sold in one of those a few years ago is going for over $300,000 now. I could double my lot size, square footage, and add a few bedrooms and bathrooms by moving there..

regardless where one lives the price of living is going to be the same. I just work on a lower scale than you do. In hawaii cab drivers make 60k a year. In TN they make 20k.

It's also a LOT easier to do what you're doing without kids, dogs simply aren't a valid comparison. My 5 year old needs a minimum of 2 hrs a day of my time. That's just for basic daily activities like getting ready for daycare in the morning, eating dinner together in the evening, and then spending some time on a small project or a book or just playing outside. Add in Teeball, going to the park, swimming lessons, etc...children are much more demanding mentally, physically, and fiscally than a dog will ever be. .

Yes kids and dogs are different, but I would defiently say that (pets + college) = (kids). cost and time wise.

Let me know when your dog asks you why the moon is following the car.
.

They havent yet. They did however ask for electricity and water to be ran to their dog house (my barn), and we are going to do that this weekend.

You're young too. When I was that age I worked 8-16 hours a day in kitchens, (in knoxville even), went out just about every night, and did it getting 4-5 hours of sleep most days of the week. Now that I'm a bit older I just can't do it anymore. I'd be surprised if you could too, especially once you have kids.

I will agree that it is harder when you are older. This is where people should have already learned alot in life and put their education/experience/knowledge to work.

LMK if you are ever in Ktown. I will get a game going.

/now really back to work.

[Lohman446]

Yes kids and dogs are different, but I would defiently say that (pets + college) = (kids). cost and time wise.

Respectfully...

In saying that you would be VERY VERY wrong.

Thats not even counting the time and money I spend dealing with an ex in court.

[punkncat]

snip

Mann, I was not meaning to call you, or anyone else for that matter, out specifically. Your McD example stood out in my mind when I was rambling on about it.

Being in the position that I see my own economic situation worsening, due to many factors. I am not a lazy person when it comes to business. Perhaps a bit misguided and uninspired at times, but never lazy. I took a bit of exception to the whole 'retort' as it were, in spite of it not specifically targeting me.

I will have to think on a logical response to this, even if I choose to make one. I really have to get my butt busy prepping for some painting. The wife catches me fooling around on the computer, playing "economic advisory" roles and I am likely not to see the light of day for a while...lol

[robnix]

regardless where one lives the price of living is going to be the same. I just work on a lower scale than you do. In hawaii cab drivers make 60k a year. In TN they make 20k.

It's not the same. Your cost for a gallon of gas alone is much less than mine.

I work in IT and I've looked at the pay scale in that area. The sad thing is that my income wouldn't change much if I moved there. We've considered it simply because my wife could be a stay at home mom there.

They havent yet. They did however ask for electricity and water to be ran to their dog house (my barn), and we are going to do that this weekend.

Smart dogs!

I will agree that it is harder when you are older. This is where people should have already learned alot in life and put their education/experience/knowledge to work.

LMK if you are ever in Ktown. I will get a game going.

/now really back to work.

Next year I'll most likely be visiting my folks in Huntsville. I'll let everyone know.