The state of our economy...

[Thordic]

regardless where one lives the price of living is going to be the same. I just work on a lower scale than you do. In hawaii cab drivers make 60k a year. In TN they make 20k.

This is simply not true. Just because housing costs 2/3x as much in State A as opposed to State B does not mean that people in State A make 2/3x as much money as people in State A. People in State B may make 30/50% more money, on average.

For example, median income in TN is $38,000. Median house value is $114,000.

Median income in NJ is $61,000. Median house value is $333,000.

So people in NJ make less than twice as much as people in TN, yet housing is almost three times as expensive. Your arguements fall flat.

Not to mention there are plenty of people in NJ who make much less than $61,000. And, median house value is brought down by southern NJ, where housing is much cheaper. I suspect median house value for northern NJ is more in the $350,000 to $400,000 range.

[BigEvil]

And, median house value is brought down by southern NJ, where housing is much cheaper. I suspect median house value for northern NJ is more in the $350,000 to $400,000 range.

That is an understatement.

[Thordic]

Yeah.

Millburn, NJ: Median house value: $1,140,200

Wayne, NJ: Median house value: $541,700

North Caldwell, NJ: Median house value: $716,100

Hell, even Passaic, which is definitely on the lower class end of things, the median house value is over $300,000, and in passaic the median income is under $30,000. Paterson, which is pretty ghetto, is still over $300,000 median house and about $35,000 median income.

And NJ is not unique, this trend is probably reflected along a good portion of both coasts (NJ, NY, MA, CT, CA, etc).

[MANN]

This is simply not true. Just because housing costs 2/3x as much in State A as opposed to State B does not mean that people in State A make 2/3x as much money as people in State A. People in State B may make 30/50% more money, on average.

For example, median income in TN is $38,000. Median house value is $114,000.

Median income in NJ is $61,000. Median house value is $333,000.

So people in NJ make less than twice as much as people in TN, yet housing is almost three times as expensive. Your arguements fall flat.

The problem with all of that is that they are averages. In Knoxville for 114 you get 1 acre + ~1800sf

In Blane you get 5 acre + ~ 2000 sf. They are only 30 min apart.

My point with that statement is that person A doing job X in town Y will live a similar life style as Person B doing job X in town Z. Yes there are jobs that break the mold with demographics. Like I stated to swampy. Green business will be a lot more profitable in FL than WI or where ever he lives.

As for the tour guide "official numbers" posted 3 or 4 post ago. I would like to call shens on those. While they are from an "offical" website I would bet that they don't take tips into consideration as most* people dont claim all of their tips. (IIRC that website pulls its info from the IRS)

(*Most being the friends that I have in the restraint business. There is no professional study that I know of to post a link to. / fine print on verbage)

You figure on a tour bus that holds 20 people (the short ones) if every couple gave 3 dollars the driver would get an extra 30 bucks a trip. If he made two trips a day he would get on average 60 dollars extra a day. Lets assume that this guy works 3-4 days a week, and bam there is an extra 11k of untaxed money for that year. For those of you who have been to hawaii/ pearl harbor / diamond head/ etc you know that the tour guide is making more than 2 trips a day.

The entire example was started to say that yes gas may be more in your part of the country, but more than likely your wages are higher there as well.

If by some chance I am wrong about all of this "cost of living vs location" then I would suggest all of you move to Knoxville where you can live prosperous while being lazy and watching road construction.

[drg]

While they are from an "offical" website I would bet that they don't take tips into consideration as most* people dont claim all of their tips. (IIRC that website pulls its info from the IRS)

You would be wrong on both accounts:

How are "wages" defined by the OES survey? top

Wages for the OES survey are straight-time, gross pay, exclusive of premium pay.

Included in the collection of wage data are:

* base rate,
* cost-of-living allowances,
* guaranteed pay,
* hazardous-duty pay, incentive pay including commissions and production bonuses, and
* on-call pay, and
* tips.

How is the OES survey conducted?
The OES survey is a semi-annual mail survey of non-farm establishments. The BLS produces the survey materials and selects the establishments to be surveyed. The sampling frame (the list from which establishments to be surveyed are selected) is derived from the list of establishments maintained by State Workforce Agencies (SWAs) for unemployment insurance purposes. Establishments to be surveyed are selected in order to obtain data from every metropolitan area and State, across all surveyed industries, and from establishments of varying sizes. The SWAs mail the survey materials to the selected establishments and make follow-up calls to request data from non-respondents or to clarify data. The collected data are used to produce occupational estimates at the National, State, and sub-State levels.

Even if you assume partial underreporting, that means the figures include at least some of the tip income of said drivers.

And even if you assume complete non-reporting of tip income, 11k on top of 24k is 35k (about 40k if we take taxes into account), a far cry from 60k. Neither of which get you anywhere within a hope and a prayer of affording the median $600,000 home in Honolulu (nor the median $300,000 apartment).

Note how the figures compare to other states, they in no way make up for the disparity in housing costs, and then there's the disparity in costs for just about everything else in Hawaii.

[chafnerjr]

I almost don't want to comment but...

Very interesting post... I'll leave the experts for the talk about the economy but here's my view. When i vote I try to think of the economy and all of the citizens of this fine country... when I'm not in the process of voting I worry about my family because that's all I can do. I make just over 30k cash per year and I support my wife who stays at home with our 2 children and dog. I have cable internet, satellite TV, Netflix, healthy food, clothes, and all the basics we need, and yes my kids are spoiled a little. With all this I can still pay all my bills, college loans for my wife and replace the car that was just totaled in an accident (bought used for CASH)... oh, and start a college savings account for my kids, buy a few shares of stock because they are performing better than any IRA that I know of... oh and I have a TIAA investment... phew... oh and to start building a Pneumag

How do I do all that??? on that little money? I don't live beyond my means! Close but NOT beyond. I DON'T get government handouts, I don't ask for them because I don't NEED them. I actually make as little as I do because I prefer to live near our large family and work in education (turned down a job in Cali for 95K/yr plus housing last year!!!). One thing though I rent... it just works better at this income level

The reality is that every American citizen needs to support themselves rather than asking other tax payers to support them! The American dream is NOT about having a house, two kids, a dog and two cars... that's just the sense of entitlement that many seem to have now-a-days... being an American is NOT a free ride... Being an American is about being able to work as hard as you want at what you want. It's about being allowed to succeed or FAIL based on your own merit. The only people in this country that aren't living the American dream are those living at the behest of others... (there are obvious exceptions for the sick, and elderly).

To bring it all back around it's obvious to me that the economy is changing. House prices were far overvalued and the market is naturally evening. People are defaulting on loans all over the place because they got in way over their heads (regardless of gov. messing with lending rules). Construction type jobs are drying up for those same reasons... no more money to spend because so many people are over-financed. What we are seeing is NOT a recession, but what happens when a society as a whole develops a sense of entitlement rather than a strong work ethic. For those history majors out there I will only point to Rome as one of a great many examples. What ever happened to civic pride and civic duty.

I'll stop now because I am ranting.. sorry

[MANN]

You would be wrong on both accounts:

Even if you assume partial underreporting, that means the figures include at least some of the tip income of said drivers.

And even if you assume complete non-reporting of tip income, 11k on top of 24k is 35k (about 40k if we take taxes into account), a far cry from 60k. Neither of which get you anywhere within a hope and a prayer of affording the median $600,000 home in Honolulu (nor the median $300,000 apartment).

Note how the figures compare to other states, they in no way make up for the disparity in housing costs, and then there's the disparity in costs for just about everything else in Hawaii.

most* people dont claim all of their tips.
Maybe this guy drives a bus that holds 50, and makes 3 trips a day. I dont know. He obviously makes enough to survive or he would not be there. Maybe he told all of us a bold face lie so we would try to move to Hawaii and take his job. I dont know.

I am not trying to argue about what EXACTLY this said Tour guide makes in a year. The "point" I am trying to get across is that yes housing is higher in different parts of the country; the income for that part of the country are usually higher also. No it is not always a linear inflation, but on a large scale I would say its close.

Regardless of location I would think that a tour guide/ taxi driver is not a very prosperous job/career.

Edit: while 40k is far less than 60k you have to think of untaxed income. The tax bracket that you will be in if you only claim 25k is alot less than if you claim 60k. If you are then allowed to keep all of your tips tax free it is similar to making 25%more (for tn taxes or at least for my tax bracket)

Take home for 60k might only be 45 a year where as take home for 25 will probably be close to 25. now when you start adding tips it will get you alot closer to the "60k bracket"

[BigEvil]

No matter where you live, the middle (working) class in this country is being taxed into oblivion. Before there was an income tax, it was possible to support a family on one income. Im not saying this is the only reason why you cant do that nowadays, but it certainly is a major factor. Lower the damn taxes and many of these issues will resolve themselves.

my $.02

[MANN]

Maybe this guy can put across my point better than I.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2500664#post2500664

[drg]

I am not trying to argue about what EXACTLY this said Tour guide makes in a year. The "point" I am trying to get across is that yes housing is higher in different parts of the country; the income for that part of the country are usually higher also. No it is not always a linear inflation, but on a large scale I would say its close.

It's not. That's the whole point of all this talk about the economy.

[MANN]

It's not. That's the whole point of all this talk about the economy.

I highly doubt that I live in the only city in America where the balance of the cost of living to wages is fair. If by some reason the cost of living is soooo much higher in these other parts of the country then I will suggest these options.

Option 1: work

Option 2: move

Option 3: Be homeless/jobless

It is not the economy that is bringing down America it is America bringing down the economy.

[drg]

The problem is when it happens while you are already there, have set your life up, etc.

Another thing young people don't have much appreciation for.

You keep losing ground and losing ground and accepting it, you'll run out of ground to lose. You keep 'making it work' with less and less, eventually you won't be able to make it work and then you're screwed.

Instead, making the economy work for Americans is a wiser goal.

[MANN]

The problem is when it happens while you are already there, have set your life up, etc.

Another thing young people don't have much appreciation for.

You keep losing ground and losing ground and accepting it, you'll run out of ground to lose. You keep 'making it work' with less and less, eventually you won't be able to make it work and then you're screwed.

Instead, making the economy work for Americans is a wiser goal.

hmmmm. your statement somewhat contradicts itself. Are you saying that young people (such as my self 24 years old) dont have apprcation for having your life "set up" ?

If so that is completely wrong. We (young people) are in the process of setting up our life. Right now I dont have any ground to lose. Not alot of savings (maybe a month or twos worth), I still have alot to pay for on my house, still paying for school, trying to save for children, etc, etc. Older people who are "set up" should already have savings set aside to carry them through tough times (unless they never saved. Again a personal problem; not an economical problem.).

Lets assume that each person lives on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Say that all of the sudden your boat began to take on water. say just 5 gallons a day. You called the boat repir, but they were busy and said they would help when they get a chance. Would you start losing ground and accepting it, or would you try to figure out a solution?

[drg]

hmmmm. your statement somewhat contradicts itself. Are you saying that young people (such as my self 24 years old) dont have apprcation for having your life "set up" ?

If so that is completely wrong. We (young people) are in the process of setting up our life. Right now I dont have any ground to lose. Not alot of savings (maybe a month or twos worth), I still have alot to pay for on my house, still paying for school, trying to save for children, etc, etc. Older people who are "set up" should already have savings set aside to carry them through tough times (unless they never saved. Again a personal problem; not an economical problem.).

Lets assume that each person lives on a boat in the middle of the ocean. Say that all of the sudden your boat began to take on water. say just 5 gallons a day. You called the boat repir, but they were busy and said they would help when they get a chance. Would you start losing ground and accepting it, or would you try to figure out a solution?

A better boat analogy is that you as a young person are still within sight of land, while the older you get, the further away from shore you get. Springing a leak means a lot more in the latter situation, no matter how many lifeboats you have.

The older you are and more established in terms of your family, career, life in general ... the more you have to lose and the harder it is to get a new start or just decide to change various aspects of your life.

As the saying goes, the higher you climb, the further you can fall.

[maxama10]

A better boat analogy is that you as a young person are still within sight of land, while the older you get, the further away from shore you get. Springing a leak means a lot more in the latter situation, no matter how many lifeboats you have.

The older you are and more established in terms of your family, career, life in general ... the more you have to lose and the harder it is to get a new start or just decide to change various aspects of your life.

As the saying goes, the higher you climb, the further you can fall.

I think he's trying to say to get some cams, rope, and a harness.

Like, you don't jump into rock climbing you gotta get some gear first! So if you fall you don't lose and fail.