Handgun advice?

[Lohman446]

Thanks for all the advice so far. After reading all this and also stopping by the gun shop, i'm definitely thinking shotty first. But i am also still thinking about a berretta or some form of 1911 (S&W?). So i'm going to head out to the rental range in the next week or so and check out some options (including glock's) and see what works. Then take the wife out and see what she thinks.

Any recommendations on a shotty that the little woman can handle too?

Oh, i checked into biometrics and then can only register 1 finger print....so thats pretty useless.

Mcglaggan, thank you for the invite. I may take you up on that...but it will be closer to fall before i have that kind of open time. But i will certainly keep it in mind. My brother (eagle to you all) may be interested in coming along.

If you really like the 1911 S+W would not be my first choice. I would not expect you are going to keep a 1911 cocked and locked (hammer back, safety on) in storage in the house. I like my Kimber 1911 but in your situation if I had to go with a 1911 I would lean towards the Para Ordanace LDA (light double action). Very few people practice enough to be truley proficient with a 1911 style firearm. Above the S+W would be (IMO) Kimber, Colt, Para-Ordanance, Sig Sauer. If you want to go really high end there are some above those as well (such as Wilson).

The 1911 is a great gun. I owned and carried a Kimber daily for a couple years. That being said I do not think they are the ideal defensive handgun for 99% of people. Frankly most people do not practice enough to be comforatble with them.

I would reconsider revolvers as well. A full size 357 allows you to shoot one of the most potent defensive rounds known as well as the far lighter shooting .38 for pracitce. Revolvers do not require the amount of time spent on clearing drills (for misfires) that an auto does. Revolvers shoot pretty naturally for most people. IMO Smith and Wesson makes the best mass market home defense revolver out there (Im sure there are some custom ones out there better). However, if you don't like them you don't like them. Just make sure its not just because of only six shot capacity, remember most 1911s don't have many more.

Its a hard choice... I normally purchase one gun one week and then the "runner up" in the how Im going to spend my money sweepstakes a week or two later. Good luck.

[kruger]

I have to go with the shotgun also. This is a home defense weapon. Finesse is not the issue. Stopping an invader is. And, the round to use it a Turkey load. Good penetration, but not overly so. If an intruder hears you rack one in and is still willing to stay in the house, then you want to put him down quick. Mossburg is the best choice for this. Easy to shoot and easy to maintain. Cheap also, but not cheaply made. And, as for damage to the house, spackle will fix any holes that are made, if that is really what you are worried about. Me, I would rather have to fix the house that to try to deal with what ever mess an intruder leaves my family in.

[skife]

I have to go with the shotgun also. This is a home defense weapon. Finesse is not the issue. Stopping an invader is. And, the round to use it a Turkey load. Good penetration, but not overly so. If an intruder hears you rack one in and is still willing to stay in the house, then you want to put him down quick. Mossburg is the best choice for this. Easy to shoot and easy to maintain. Cheap also, but not cheaply made. And, as for damage to the house, spackle will fix any holes that are made, if that is really what you are worried about. Me, I would rather have to fix the house that to try to deal with what ever mess an intruder leaves my family in.

part of me says go with target load to just injure the guy.

part of me says buckshot so the guy dies, dead men tell no tales.

[LegumeOfTerror]

the only time you ever use a firearm on another person is because you are in a situation where you reasonably believe the only way out without death or serious injury is to kill that person. you don't shoot someone with a target load, you shoot them with something that's going to drop them as quickly as possible.

[MoeMag]

part of me says go with target load to just injure the guy.

part of me says buckshot so the guy dies, dead men tell no tales.

[bryceeden]

the only time you ever use a firearm on another person is because you are in a situation where you reasonably believe the only way out without death or serious injury is to kill that person. you don't shoot someone with a target load, you shoot them with something that's going to drop them as quickly as possible.

Exactly, which is why with a handgun you'll need to plan on shooting 3 minimum(two to the body one to the head). An instant kill isn't realistic in an actual situation(volentary movement and control last 15 seconds after compleat destruction of the heart) so the goal is to cut blood flow to the brain and thus incapacitate the person, the ore blood lost the faster the result. To put it truthfully everything you hear about calibers and ballistics test can pretty much be thrown out the window as ballistic gel isn't an overly good replica of a human body. A Shotgun with buckshot is your best bet as it does massive amounts of damage to the person and one shot will do the job most of the time plus its not super powerful so there won't be a ton of over penatration risk.

[LegumeOfTerror]

Exactly, which is why with a handgun you'll need to plan on shooting 3 minimum(two to the body one to the head). An instant kill isn't realistic in an actual situation(volentary movement and control last 15 seconds after compleat destruction of the heart) so the goal is to cut blood flow to the brain and thus incapacitate the person, the ore blood lost the faster the result. To put it truthfully everything you hear about calibers and ballistics test can pretty much be thrown out the window as ballistic gel isn't an overly good replica of a human body. A Shotgun with buckshot is your best bet as it does massive amounts of damage to the person and one shot will do the job most of the time plus its not super powerful so there won't be a ton of over penatration risk.

you NEVER aim for the head. you always shoot center of mass where you have the heart, lungs, spine, liver, kidney, and other organs are that will result in massive trauma and incapacitation. shooting someone in the head will get you ruined in a possible civil suit. that "two in the chest one in the head" is what people learn from "operators" on the internet.

[MoeMag]

you NEVER aim for the head. you always shoot center of mass where you have the heart, lungs, spine, liver, kidney, and other organs are that will result in massive trauma and incapacitation. shooting someone in the head will get you ruined in a possible civil suit. that "two in the chest one in the head" is what people learn from "operators" on the internet.

Thats what I learned in my Arizona State concealed weapons classes.

Maybe its one of those state to state things?

Another thing I learned was... if your worried about where you shoot someone because of the outcome, you probably shouldnt be shooting them.

[Lohman446]

Thats what I learned in my Arizona State concealed weapons classes.

Maybe its one of those state to state things?

Another thing I learned was... if your worried about where you shoot someone because of the outcome, you probably shouldnt be shooting them.

Your instructer learned it from an internet tough guy BS. The goal is always simply to stop the threat (not to kill). Most reputable sources as such advise shooting center of mass unless situations (body armor) dictate otherwise.

It is honestly not adhered to by any reputable instruction, Good theory, bad in practice.

[skife]

Your instructer learned it from an internet tough guy BS. The goal is always simply to stop the threat (not to kill). Most reputable sources as such advise shooting center of mass unless situations (body armor) dictate otherwise.

It is honestly not adhered to by any reputable instruction, Good theory, bad in practice.

I think in most situations a warning shot is going to send a pretty decent sign to the intruder to GTFO. I've shot a firearm without hearing protection and it was loud, I can't imagine indoors without hearing protection.

[Lohman446]

I think in most situations a warning shot is going to send a pretty decent sign to the intruder to GTFO. I've shot a firearm without hearing protection and it was loud, I can't imagine indoors without hearing protection.

From a legal stand point there is no such thing as a warning shot. You pull the trigger its the same legally as shooting to stop (at least in MI). Thus, the tactical use of a warning shot is gone at least IMO.

[DevilMan]

In self defense there is NO WARNING SHOT!!!! And there is NO HEAD SHOT, CHEST shot, LEG shot, HAND shot..... In self defense you better have the gun up and just TRY to hit your target. If you pull high and take the head off then OOOOPS!!! you missed center mass..

I would think that very few people have have actually killed/shot another person. LEO's aside. I'm in that same boat and hope that I never have to. But I've done enough training with pop up bad guys and such that even the reaction to the pop up and then going OH CRAP!!!! I just try and hit the target anywhere before he can get me. That's what matters....

I also suggest a pump shotgun as it's a great all around weapon, easy to use, easy to learn and cheap ammo to practice on.

If it's home defence you are going for them you ALL need to practice with the weapon. And that's not take a target set it up and shoot it... That's pick the gun up in the dark and learn to rack it without lights on... that's set up a "target" in the garage and have the person training go find the target while someone else flicks on the light... do this with an unloaded gun of course... preferably with a gun lock through the action. Get used to being scared and REACTING to the threat....

If anyone has ever done SWAT night training when they flick on lights, or slam open doors, even in the training you come close to crappin yourself.... this is with folks that know... think what it's like for a civvie??? If you get a shotgun, get a light mount on the front of it. Not some fancy activated tactical light... just a light that when you pull the gun up you see where it's aimed.

Practice at night in the dark around the house... Practice racking the slide in the dark.... get used to where the buttons are on the gun and what does what.... make sure you can operate the safety without looking at it... PRACTICE with the weapon!!!!

Put a gun lock through it, or make sure that there is NO ammo anywhere near the weapon and learn to rack and dry fire in a safe direction. Alot of folks may balk at that advice but I've been shooting guns since I was 5. I know what a dry fire is, I know how to clear my weapons and I know that having a weapon that you don't actively practice the motions with in the right settings is next to worthless.... I know that when you target shoot, you FEEL the recoil more than when you HUNT. I know my ears ring at the range... in the field I never hear the shot. You have to get fluent and comfortable with the weapon and what's its capable of. If you have land somewhere where you can shoot, make a zip line of sorts and hang a milk jug with water from it and send it across in front of the shooter to get used to a moving target.... Toss a rope over a limb tie it to a jug stand behind the shooter and pull it up off the ground as fast as possible... Do it from an angle to the side of the shooter so they can get used to the motion of not being straight where they look... Do this with a unloaded weapon to where the shooter can draw on it and pull the trigger... then get them used to doing it with live ammo.

BE CAREFUL doing these things. ALWAYS rack it back and make sure the weapon is clear. ALWAYS when you are talking or practicing with the weapon around pull the slide open. Don't matter if it's loaded or not if you open the slide it's unloaded now. So make sure of that... make sure to clear it as you practice, do it in the dark... Make it understood throughout the house that this is what happens. If possible make so that your wife knows what to do and that if your family ever hears the shucking of a round that they are to get under the bed or in the tub. DO NOT go walking around wondering what that sound was. Alot of folks talk about what to do, but not many actually practice the motions... It SUCKS that we have to be "SCARED" but it's more than that. It's training. Make it so that your kids treat it as a tornado.... They hear something they get in the tub or under the bed. The mattress will stop a shotgun blast and so would the tub. Come up with code words to communicate with through doors and walls and such.... Instead of calling first name and answering yes.... call First name and the reply is the middle name. Or something as such.

If it comes down to it, the weapon holder should be able to go the the son/daughters door call to them first name hear a reply middle name. If the perp is in that room then make it just a yes or no answer..... if they are safe then they should be alright with remembering to say the middle name. It will take practice. But the weapon holder should be able to go and round up the kids and put them all in a central safe location. Preferably a room with a phone of course. If it comes to that and you get them in the room under the bed or in the tub then you can call the popo's to come investigate. MAKE SURE TO TELL THE OPERATOR YOU ARE IN A ROOM AND ARE ARMED!!!! AND THAT THE COPS NEED TO CALL OUT BEFORE ENTERING. Or tell them that you are in the back room and there is a window to communicate through. Or upstairs or where ever you are and that you are behind a locked/shut door so to make sure and call out before opening anything. PRACTICE IT!!!! Practice it at home. Try and get your kids used to if you knock on the door to the room that they answer with their middle name. Does it suck to take the "peace" away from kids??? Yeah it does... but it's better to have them know what to do then have someone else frighten them the rest of their lives.

Wow... this got quite long.....

Hope it never happens to ya again man, but practice it and be safe doing it. I'm tired of the general populace being scared and untrained in their defense of house and home. I'd rather let the criminals have to find new lines of work.

Anything else ya need to know just ask up... lots of great advice here so far.

DM

[Spider-TW]

I think in most situations a warning shot is going to send a pretty decent sign to the intruder to GTFO. I've shot a firearm without hearing protection and it was loud, I can't imagine indoors without hearing protection.

I don't know how you train for that deafness without a shoot house. I've been in deer blinds when the muzzle wasn't out the window, that's tough to move through.

The guys in the movies that hear the gas hissing or the footsteps on glass after a full auto gun battle in a little house are very impressive.

[Lohman446]

There is a point here that has to be taken into consideration and that is how / where you live. For instance I am at least 15 minutes from the closest responding police force and an hour from one that is fully prepared to do a tactically entry against an armed intruder (not saying my locals can't or wouldn't, there great guys but its not a scenario they are greatly trained for). My closest neighbor is a quarter mile away.

That gives me some unique needs for self defense, as well as some considerations that I don't have to be as careful of. Overpenentration is not a concern, but the ability to hold a defensive position is. And, although it is strongly advised against even in my situation the ability to respond to my neighbors need for help is a consideration that I have to be aware of. I also live in a state that allows me to stop an imminent threat on either side of the door frame but requires retreat if possible and not already inside my house. You need to appraise your situation and determine its unique advantages and disadvantages both tactically and legally. There are certified NRA (and other) experts who can help you.

For the record there are steps that can and should be taken to make your house less of a target (assuming these are not people with personal grudges) than those up the street. Thorny bushes in front of windows, lack of concealing cover around windows and entranceways, motion lighting, security systems, etc are all things that make your house look less appealing from the road. Now, I like having a back-up plan (or several) but a "first line of defense" is great, and deterence is a great defense. Burglars / Home Invaders look for certain things in targets - value as well as risk. Making your home look harder to enter without showing high valuable easily fenced items can be far more effective than getting a handgun.

[DevilMan]

I don't know how you train for that deafness without a shoot house. I've been in deer blinds when the muzzle wasn't out the window, that's tough to move through.

The guys in the movies that hear the gas hissing or the footsteps on glass after a full auto gun battle in a little house are very impressive.

On the training for the deafening boom.... hearing is important to maintain... but don't train with the huge mickey mouses on. Put in the foamies. You can shoot and play with the mickeys on, but when you get into the react, find, sight, pull part try to do it with just the foamies so that it protects you but gives you the proper feeling. It's not like you are gonna get woken up in the middle of the night and put on mickeys....

Train for the incident....

DM