Gun Control

[dahoeb]

http://www.wnd.com/2004/12/28253/

In a nutshell:

"The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns."

Are you really so naive as to think that criminals won't illegally get guns some other way? If they really want to cause violence or death, do you think a silly gun law will stop them? Seriously....

[MoeMag]

Are you really so naive as to think that criminals won't illegally get guns some other way? If they really want to cause violence or death, do you think a silly gun law will stop them? Seriously....

And this from a California man. Sir you have my respect.

[dahoeb]

And this from a California man. Sir you have my respect.

Formerly California Got the heck outta there!
(note: i guess i need to update my profile one of these days!)

[Frizzle Fry]

Wether the guns used were llegal or not is beside the point.
As far as violent crimes go, again, the US is far ahead of European countries there as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Now, feel free to back up your opinion, with links to notoriously inaccurate and biased wikipedia articles.

Whether guns used are illegal or not is besides the point? Gun control can only effectively restrict legally purchased firearms - it has no effect on illegally purchased or stolen firearms until after the crime has been committed (be it a violent crime or merely brandishing, any gun found in a search or seizure would need probably cause for such actions or an accompanying offense). Assault and murder have stiff penalties, what effect can possibly be had by making those penalties slightly stiffer when such a crime is committed with a firearm?

Also, your first 'article' states that incidence of "violent crimes" in similarly developed countries with greater gun control policies are comparable and . You state that the US is "far ahead" of Europe in terms of "violent crimes" and then present as evidence a wikipedia article about homicide rates (not violent crimes) which begins with an enormous disclaimer about just how inaccurate it probably is. I'm not going to delve too deeply into the police states that exist in much of Europe as a response to both domestic and external terrorism in the last 40 years, but suffice it to say you would be comparing apples and oranges if you tried to draw analogies between the the political situations in much of eastern and northern europe with those in north america.

I'm not going to argue with you further. You clearly have little knowledge of the subject, other than what you've gathered by reading a handful of wikipedia articles. I'm actively involved in GOAL and the NRA, as well as IALEFI and several local training and shooting groups. I make active research a part of my every day life, and advocacy for law-abiding gun owners has always been a focus. Experience with the legal system and a more deep study of history than most don't hurt either.

If you want me to back up my statements about gun control with actual studies, feel free to read this study by the National Academy of Sciences which can be found here . The Research Council (funded by the the NIJ and CDC) put together a panel (all but one member supported gun control) in 2004 to study the effectiveness and benefits of gun control. The panel was unable to find any benefit from gun control programs, and the only conclusion they were willing to draw was that more research was needed, specifically with regards to incident reporting (as I mentioned earlier) and with more general issues. The meat of their report shows a lack of efficacy, and research did not address the day-to-day issues encountered by legal gun owners.

There are many more publications from other, legitimate independent sources, but I figured you might appreciate something from a committee comprised of individuals who have individually vocally supported gun control, rather than an opposition group or an entirely neutral party.

[Frizzle Fry]

http://www.wnd.com/2004/12/28253/

In a nutshell:

"The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns."

Are you really so naive as to think that criminals won't illegally get guns some other way? If they really want to cause violence or death, do you think a silly gun law will stop them? Seriously....

Guess I'm a little late with my tl;dr post

Last post, serious this time.

[Henchman]

This is a pointless donation.
Facts vs opinion.

[stonersr26]

Kennesaw, GA............ Case closed

[behemoth]

This is a pointless donation.
Facts vs opinion.

Yep, fact is, you're wrong.

[sjrtk]

Gun control does nothing but restrict LEGAL firearms. This is FACT.

Here is an example 100% true because it is what i am dealing with as we speak.

I live in a state were you need a license to buy a fire arm. Once i have that license i can buy a rifle or a shotgun, I need a special additional permit for a handgun. Just to be legal. Now i had this license, specify HAD because the state changed the laws and now ILLEGALLY uses a arrest for a fight i wHas in when i was 16 (yes folks a minor). Was i in jail? No. Have i been in trouble since? No with the exception of traffic violations. So i lose my license 12 years after i got in trouble and wait for it 7 years after they issued it to me in the first place. I only found out about the law change after i file to change the address on the license to REMAIN LEGAL.

So what am i to do? Well now that I can't legal own or transport a fire arm so I called my Father, another LEGAL owner of firearms, to come down to the house and pick them up for me. Something he could not do for a few days. So for 3 day gun control laws made a LEGAL gun owner into a criminal. So now i am going to court to get the issue resolved.

Have fun.

Gun control DOES NOT REDUCE GUN CRIME. It made me a criminal for 3 days. Figgure that out.

[Henchman]

Gun control does nothing but restrict LEGAL firearms. This is FACT.

Here is an example 100% true because it is what i am dealing with as we speak.

I live in a state were you need a license to buy a fire arm. Once i have that license i can buy a rifle or a shotgun, I need a special additional permit for a handgun. Just to be legal. Now i had this license, specify HAD because the state changed the laws and now ILLEGALLY uses a arrest for a fight i wHas in when i was 16 (yes folks a minor). Was i in jail? No. Have i been in trouble since? No with the exception of traffic violations. So i lose my license 12 years after i got in trouble and wait for it 7 years after they issued it to me in the first place. I only found out about the law change after i file to change the address on the license to REMAIN LEGAL.

So what am i to do? Well now that I can't legal own or transport a fire arm so I called my Father, another LEGAL owner of firearms, to come down to the house and pick them up for me. Something he could not do for a few days. So for 3 day gun control laws made a LEGAL gun owner into a criminal. So now i am going to court to get the issue resolved.

Have fun.

Gun control DOES NOT REDUCE GUN CRIME. It made me a criminal for 3 days. Figgure that out.

Don't get arrested. Stay out of trouble. Get your record expunged if t is such a minor thing.
Smart thing to do anyway, since employers will see it when they do a background check.

Traffic violations?
Any DUI's?

[dahoeb]

Don't get arrested. Stay out of trouble. Get your record expunged if t is such a minor thing.
Smart thing to do anyway, since employers will see it when they do a background check.

Traffic violations?
Any DUI's?

I think you're missing the point.....

[Henchman]

I think you're missing the point.....

Nope.
Not missing the point at all.
Do you think known and convicted criminals should legally be allowed to own guns?
A simple yes or no question.

[dahoeb]

Nope.
Not missing the point at all.
Do you think known and convicted criminals should legally be allowed to own guns?
A simple yes or no question.

No. You obviously didn't get it. His point was that with enough laws, you can make any person a criminal. This is exactly what happened during prohibition. This is what people who enjoy marijuana argue.

Convicted criminal? Thats awfully vague (typical of "liberal" positions though). If i stole a pack of gum, I could be classified convicted criminal if someone decided to take it that far. Now, if you are charged with a misdemeanor, felony, etc, thats the distinction that is drawn. Should those convicted of serious felonies be allowed to purchase weapons? Ofcourse not, they forfeit that right when they attack society. Just like they forfeit the right to vote.

But with that being said, do you think a felon, who decides to commit a serious crime against somebody again, is really going to care about a gun law? Do you really think that he's going to sit there and say to himself, "Gee, I really wanna go rob someone (or kill, rape, etc), but those pesky gun laws, sigh....woe is me." No. In fact, we've sorta proven that point here. The best you can do is muster up some false analogy between the US and Europe. Even if you wanted to make that point, you conveniently leave out the news reports of violent crime steadily increasing in the UK after they decided to ban handguns....

Edit: BTW, where would you stop? Afterall, cars kill more people than guns. So do Doctors. Shouldn't we outlaw those as well? And knives...and baseball bats....and harsh language.... it's for the people's own good, ya know!

[Henchman]

The point of these laws is to make it easier to send repeat offendors to jail, if they get caught with a gun.
If you get arrested for a minor offense, get your record expunged.
And stay out of trouble.

[dahoeb]

The point of these laws is to make it easier to send repeat offendors to jail, if they get caught with a gun.
If you get arrested for a minor offense, get your record expunged.
And stay out of trouble.

You haven't listened to a single word thats been written in this thread. Congratulations.