IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[Collegeboy]

Say that France is only doing what they are doing now because of the economic gains they have invested is pointless. For the US stands to gain the backing of the government of a country that sets upon the third largest oil reserve in the world (Might not be the third but it is high). Now when the war is "over" (If it ever is), and if the government last more then 2 years, then you will see Iraq pulling out of OPEC, and guess what will happen in the US. Gas prices at 99 cent again. Now is this the only reason we are going to war, or the main reason. NO, but it is a reason.

[aaron_mag]

Shartley your post showed as usual that you do not read or think about what other people post. I had stated in several of my posts that I was not in total disagreement with our official (ie government) stance on Iraq. I also have stated several times that I thought Bush's stance of seeming to be eager to go to war might be actually be good in that it might achieve compliance without war through forcing cooperations with the weapons inspectors.

What I have always disliked was the total lack of diplomacy in dealing with our allies (note our allies not our enemies). I do not mind "heavy handed" politicking behind doors but public statements and speeches should be about friendship and working with our allies. As I have stated Rumsfield's published statements have made me want to punch him in the mouth.

People talk about international prejudice. When I was abroad in France in the early 90s I couldn't believe that there were stores called America selling clothes with American Flags. There were tons of kids wearing these American Flags in France. To say that we hated around the world is a bunch of BS.

You bring up Kosovo. Note that there was not huge anti-American sentiment against the US nor was there the same feeling in the first Gulf war. You are going to believe what you want to believe. I am just going to hope that in the next election the people who feel as I do outnumber those who feel as you do.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Say that France is only doing what they are doing now because of the economic gains they have invested is pointless. For the US stands to gain the backing of the government of a country that sets upon the third largest oil reserve in the world (Might not be the third but it is high). Now when the war is "over" (If it ever is), and if the government last more then 2 years, then you will see Iraq pulling out of OPEC, and guess what will happen in the US. Gas prices at 99 cent again. Now is this the only reason we are going to war, or the main reason. NO, but it is a reason.

[cphilip]

*** Note seperate French issues thread now***

ANY OF THE IS SUBJECT TO CLOSURE AT ANY TIME!

[shartley]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Shartley your post showed as usual that you do not read or think about what other people post. I had stated in several of my posts that I was not in total disagreement with our official (ie government) stance on Iraq. I also have stated several times that I thought Bush's stance of seeming to be eager to go to war might be actually be good in that it might achieve compliance without war through forcing cooperations with the weapons inspectors.

What I have always disliked was the total lack of diplomacy in dealing with our allies (note our allies not our enemies). I do not mind "heavy handed" politicking behind doors but public statements and speeches should be about friendship and working with our allies. As I have stated Rumsfield's published statements have made me want to punch him in the mouth.

People talk about international prejudice. When I was abroad in France in the early 90s I couldn't believe that there were stores called America selling clothes with American Flags. There were tons of kids wearing these American Flags in France. To say that we hated around the world is a bunch of BS.

You bring up Kosovo. Note that there was not huge anti-American sentiment against the US nor was there the same feeling in the first Gulf war. You are going to believe what you want to believe. I am just going to hope that in the next election the people who feel as I do outnumber those who feel as you do.

[1stdeadeye]

Not even close!

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Say that France is only doing what they are doing now because of the economic gains they have invested is pointless. For the US stands to gain the backing of the government of a country that sets upon the third largest oil reserve in the world (Might not be the third but it is high). Now when the war is "over" (If it ever is), and if the government last more then 2 years, then you will see Iraq pulling out of OPEC, and guess what will happen in the US. Gas prices at 99 cent again. Now is this the only reason we are going to war, or the main reason. NO, but it is a reason.

Actually Iraq sits upon the second largest "proven" reserves. Russia's may be larger, but we don't know. You are mistaken. If every country we saved pulled out of OPEC, why is Kuwait still in it? The U.S. wants to put a democratic government in, not a puppet regime. Why are you so focused on that possibility? We could have put any regime we wanted in Kuwait after Gulf War I, we didn't. We returned the country to the people. Why would Iraq be any different? Iraq has a well educated populace who should be more then capable of running their own country once free of Saddam's terror!

On CNN last night, Connie Chung did an interview with an Iraqi dissident (granted she was biased) who stated that her family and friends in Iraq are afraid of the campaign, not freedom. They are anticipating their liberty! Her friends and family stated that most Iraqi troops will surrender(with the exception of the Republican Guard). The counter-point to that interview was Tim Robbins who came accross as a complete moron. I am so happy that his career is circling the bowl!

I am sure you saw CPhil's article about Iraqis already trying to surrender. You know what, at this rate we can start calling Iraq-the France of the Middle East!

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by shartley

It's kinda hard to stand up straight with NO backbone.

[Collegeboy]

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley
[B]

What do you want me to get a grip on? (that is a joke by the way).

But I like the 90s! I was younger, slimmer, and having a heck of alot of fun! Now I'm married, sedentary, and very boring. If you haven't already figured out I am going to be one of those hopeless sorts that is listening to the 80/90s song stations when it is the year 2030!

Human rights violations? I thought we were going to war over national security? War for national security or the security of our allies I can accept but I cannot accept war for human rights violations. Human rights violations happen ALL OVER THE WORLD! Do I want to see the US go into armed conflict with every petty dictator in the world? NO! We CANNOT police the world. I don't want to see young Americans die fighting all over the world. Even a few casulties are too many. Show me that this is to stop another terrorist attack. Tell me that Turkey (a UN ally) is calling for our aid against an impending Iraqi attack. Don't tell me, however, that we are now in charge of invading every country with human rights violations. Those changes must come from within their own country.

[Collegeboy]

When will Bush go to war against Zimbabwae, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Palestine, etc........ ? All bad examples of human rights violations.

[Hasty8]

Originally posted by Jack_Dubious
1stdeadeye brings up a good point....why didnt anyone (US included) do anything about Rwanda? Actually why didnt we even hear or see anything about Rwanda?


JDub

Because Rwanda did not and still does not have weapons of mass destruction and an intense burning hatred of America.

[shartley]

[Hasty8]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Sorry....I have to be the voice of disharmony (as 1stdeadeye is sure to predict).

September 11th was a horrible tragedy and the tragic nature was recognized by people around the world (as was alluded to in the article). I remember reading stories about German boats flying US flags after 9/11! It brought tears to my eyes.

The general feeling in the US is the goodwill is gone from world and that the world has become anti-American. The question that some of us fail to ask about ourselves is WHY! How can we go from Germans flying US Flags to feeling like they are ungrateful to all we have done for them (which is alot).

I would submit that they feel slighted by us! So many countries extended the hands of friendship after 9/11 until we started the "you are either with us or against us speeches". It was like slapping them in the face! I appreciate the Brits statement of solidarity but I will also submit that if we are a freedom loving country (which I believe that we are) then we must accept that other countries can disagree with us without them being our "enemies". On this board there are a ton of anti French jokes. Is respect not a two way street?

This is not an anti military statement. As I have said before on the board my cousin is a Marine pilot and two of my uncles are retired army. I have no problem with a strong military. If anything our technological advantage to GROW! Anyway I've put in my two cents.

Aaron, do you even the slightest idead of just how much money America gives out to prop uo failing economies the world round? Do you have any idea how much money alone is funneled into the Middle East ruling clans? That money is the primary reason there is so much hatred for the US.

The US supports the rise of Clan A to power who immediately put Clan B, C, D and E into a really bad place. Do clans B, C, D, and E go against Clan A? No. Why? Because it would be bad in the eyes of their religion. So, who do they turn their hatred too? The people who back Clan A, America.

Also Aaron, regardless of whatever things we did wrong in the Middle East we never, ever, ever intentionally murder innocents. The WTC was not an attack on any type of military installation. It was an attack on innocents which is why it is all the more horrible than Pearl Harbor, the Pentagon or the MArine barracks a few year back. Those in the military undertake the venture with a knowledge that they might die. How can you [in a general sense] even possibly argue that innocent civilians, who have absolutely no say in foreign policy, deserved to die like that?

Do other countries have the right to disagree with us? Of course they do. But we also have the right to remove federal funding if they won't help us.

As for the repsect for the French. As soon as they give it to others we will give it to them. I have had the displeasure of working with French nationals and even french-canadians for about the past ten years and all I can say is that I have yet to meet one that I like. My personal experience has found them to be, to the last one, obnixious, sniveling, obsequious, superficial little brats. Again, that's just my personal experience and not my definition of every single one.

[aaron_mag]

This is where my comments on not reading posts come from. Since the very beginning when you all were arguing with collegeboy about if women are getting raped in Iraq (which was a totally ridiculous argument on collegeboys part) I was saying that I was not willing to risk American troops (even though I think there will be very few casulties) on such things. Yes it is cold and cruel of me but I feel that we as a nation cannot provide justice to the entire world. We have enough difficulty providing it to our own country! 1stdeadeye and I disagree on things but we debate/discuss. There is nothing that is debate/discussion in your statement above.

Aaron, do you even the slightest idead of just how much money America gives out to prop uo failing economies the world round? Do you have any idea how much money alone is funneled into the Middle East ruling clans? That money is the primary reason there is so much hatred for the US.

The US supports the rise of Clan A to power who immediately put Clan B, C, D and E into a really bad place. Do clans B, C, D, and E go against Clan A? No. Why? Because it would be bad in the eyes of their religion. So, who do they turn their hatred too? The people who back Clan A, America.

Also Aaron, regardless of whatever things we did wrong in the Middle East we never, ever, ever intentionally murder innocents. The WTC was not an attack on any type of military installation. It was an attack on innocents which is why it is all the more horrible than Pearl Harbor, the Pentagon or the MArine barracks a few year back. Those in the military undertake the venture with a knowledge that they might die. How can you [in a general sense] even possibly argue that innocent civilians, who have absolutely no say in foreign policy, deserved to die like that?

Read the post where you quoted me. Does it say that I support the 9/11 attacks? Does it say that we shouldn't be in Afgahnistan? It is about our allies and the support they had for us in our time of need. It is about fostering good will between allies rather than being devisive. If my quote is arguing in favor of the 9/11 attack it must be in such a metaphysical "general sense" that I cannot comprehend it.

[Hasty8]

I never said that you supported the 9/11 attacks.

I was merely trying to explain how those extremists see a lot of the problems they face as being Americas fault.

As for your comment on America's stance of "Your either with us or against us" is a posture we should of taken a long time ago. What really rubs my rhubarb is that France and Germany both decided that they did not have to uphold their NATO agreement and defend Turkey simply because they do not approve of the war.

As some may remember Turkey, the only NATO country that shares a border with IRaq was at first more than agreeable to allow us to use their bases as staging points with the caveat that other European NATO partners defended them should they garner any backlash because of the war. FRANDE AND GERMANY REFUSED!!!! That is totally unacceptable and I am horrified and dismayed that they have not been forcibly ejected from NATO because of that. What good is the alliance when you can pick and choose when and how you will defend other members of that alliance. I think it is issues like that where the mindset of "You are either a part of the problem or the solution" is warranted.

A lot of people are saying right now "What right gives America the power to say who is bad and who is good?" As far as I am concerned it's our billions upon billions of dollars donated to foerign aid. It's also the fact that no one else is willing to do it. Another point is that we are just cleaning up our own mess. But what can you expect. We get blamed for making the mess and we get blamed for cleaning it up.