IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


The government could be made up of monkeys and nothing will change. Any government put into power after a US lead invasion in which was not the original power will be thought of has a puppet of the US government, or a extremely good friend of the US. Even if in the slightest of causes the US actually allows a fair election, that still will not matter. It will still be conceived as a pro US government. Which means the second US troops step out, bye bye government. Hello terrorist supporting, fundamentalist, general pain in the read end government. Hello to a new war. etc......

Slightest chance? You really are a conspiracy theory buff aren't you? Did the US install of government in Afghanistan? No. We helped them start an interim government and then walked away. The Iraqi people are well educated, what make you think that they are not smart enough to form a legitimate democratic government? When the gun is taken away from the polls, see where the votes go! Maybe if you trust them they will govern themselves well? Do you think that they at least deserve a chance too?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
No Sharltey you couldn't be more wrong. Does it surprise you that your "logic" hasn't won me over. Maybe it isn't me, maybe it is you. Your own post could describe you. I don't like to argue and shy away from it a lot of times. But I do like to discuss. But these discussions always turns into arguments. Why? People don't like change. They don't like to be asked to look at it in a different way; they don't like to be asked to look at it on both sides of the coin.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I never said I was intelligent, I never said I was smart. In fact I have said that I don't know anything when it comes to this world, and in fact no one knows anything. Experience is good when it is not tainted. You used your example of you being stationed in a foreign country and the "hatred" you received to say that people in other countries hate the US. Well Duh. But you fail to point out that you were a military member, a foreign military member. IN a foreign country. A lot of foreigners hate that US troops are stationed in their country especially after the cold war, even during it, so they have a hatred to US soldiers stationed there, but they do not hate Americans. You used your experience with terrorist to say what makes a terrorist. But you fail to say that you are dealing with already brainwashed zealots who are already a terrorist. But you haven't dealt with that little kid walking down the street in Palestine who in 10 years might become a terrorist. Since the argument of what makes a terrorist, your experience with preformed terrorist prejudices your outlook. (I made the above formed conclusions based on your statements that you dealt with terrorist, and that your were stationed oversees).

Originally posted by Collegeboy
And what has MarkM pointed out, that he can misread a statement?

[AcemanPB]

Well I had quite a good argument written, but I accidently closed the window (doh! )

Anyways I'll leave it at this: I don't understand what we are doing in Iraq and what gives us the right to be over there.

With all facts considered I don't think any type of hostile action will help the situation right now.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by AcemanPB
Well I had quite a good argument written, but I accidently closed the window (doh! )

Anyways I'll leave it at this: I don't understand what we are doing in Iraq and what gives us the right to be over there.

With all facts considered I don't think any type of hostile action will help the situation right now.

that's one hell of a contradictory post.

[Collegeboy]

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
You can not compare Hitler and Nazi Germany with Saddam and his government. They are two polar opposites of each other.

I agree that these were two different situations. Are Hitler and Saddam polar opposites, however? I don't think that this is really true. No one would argue that Saddam is a great guy and good for his nation. It is statements like this that typically find you arguing with five people at once and defending (what I humbly consider) an untenable position. I don't think that you really believe statements like the one above. It is probably the result of typing a bit too fast. I hope you don't take this as an attack but rather an observation.

Personally I don't know what will happen with a post Saddam Iraq. Could be a successful democracy. I know that Rumsfeld said something about American companies getting contracts to rebuild so it isn't like we'll be in and out. I also think that the war will be very quick. I'd like to see us work with NATO. The Bush administration has failed to prove that Saddam represents an immediate danger to our national security and the national security of our allies. Hopefully the British will be able to hammer out a compromise that everyone can live with. The US would have to compromise some on the time line (which I don't think will happen). The Bush administration definetely OWES Blair something. The guy is almost committing polical suicide to support Bush.

[joeyjoe367]

Who cares about Post-Saddam Iraq?!?!?!? I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell am afraid of what'll go on if there *IS NO* Post-Saddam Iraq!

[Jojo1]

First I would like to say good article. Second i think this world has become to relaxed and full of political correctness. When you have reporters live in Iraq even during the gulf war you know theres a problem. Saddam doesnt even need any intelligence all he has to do is watch CNN. Anyway it seems to me that the United States of America is getting taken advantge of. When there is a huge disaster in another country who is there first spending millions upon millions of dollars? Everyone needs and wants something from us, but when we need something they turn there back on us...Personally its getting old, to France and Great Britian have you guys forgot about WWII, who bailed out all of Europe, the United States. For all you people who think invading Iraq will bring on another 9/11, well your probally right but its going to happen whether we invade or not. Why should we wait to be a victim before we attack...to me thats a load of crap. An eariler post someone wrote that we slapped our allies in the face when President Bush said your either with us of against us. Correct me if im wrong, but that was during the speech he said he would invade any nation harboring terrorists. What good are allies if they dont do a damn thing for you? Honestly if the French and Brits do not want to invade Iraq then they can stay at home. Bush needs to say screw the UN and do what he feels is right. I know most do not agree with this, but sometimes you gotta go against the grain and do what is right. As for all the hostility towards the US in the middle east...i saw screw them to, dont give em a cent. We have problems and poverty in the US, and that money would help a great deal. I have one more thing to add...all you people against invading Iraq...would you like to live there under a sadistic tyrant? Most likely no..so should why they?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
And now Shartley

You sit here telling me how I am so wrong and such and such, and you make statements like I will never change, I am blinded and such. Yet you have never changed. Is it just me or is that a little funny. I never said I was the only person on earth that is right, READ MY POST.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
You might be known here on AO as someone who looks at both sides of the coin, but you sure are not showing it in this debate.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
If you think I am doing this to become a rebel, or to be PC, or to make myself feel better, get a life. I believe in what I do, because I believe in it.

Get a life? I have already LIVED more life than you have even dreamed of. Of course you believe you believe in it, but that does not change WHY you do.

Originally posted by Collegeboy

Originally posted by Collegeboy
And Sharlty you keep spouting what you think you know, yet claim I do it. Kind of funny to me.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartley you sound like the old man at the end of the street who thinks he knows everything because he lived through them. Only turns out he doesn't even know the slightest bit.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
How can dealing with a preformed terrorist tell you what makes a terrorist? You would be a good source on what a terrorist is and their mind set at being a terroist, but a very bad source on what happens to make the kid fall for that logic.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
How can being a military member in a foreign country tell you about hatred towards the average family?

According to YOU, nothing. In fact, unless it is YOUR source, or YOUR words, no one can tell anyone anything at all.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
My father was born in Paris; my mother was born in Berlin. Most of them spent their school years in foreign countries. And each one of them loved it. They never had a problem with hatred of the US. But my grandfathers had troubles when they went out to a restaurant in their military outfit. My dad graduated from Paris American High School in 1956. He then spent the next 2 years wondering around Paris until he came back to the US, joined the Army and got stationed in Germany. My dad told me that there in Germany he experience some resentment to the fact that he was there. Something he hasn't felt in his years of being over sees as a regular citizen living with the regular citizens.

Originally posted by Collegeboy
So what does your experience as a military member in a foreign country tell you about how the average person feels about America?

Originally posted by Collegeboy
My post was very clear, the one MarkM quoted. You are just agreeing to agree. Why don't you read it and see what you come up with. There is no where in there that said I know everything because I can out argue grad students. Please find it if he is so right.

Originally posted by shartley

Originally posted by shartley

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by joeyjoe367
Who cares about Post-Saddam Iraq?!?!?!? I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell am afraid of what'll go on if there *IS NO* Post-Saddam Iraq!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Jojo1
An eariler post someone wrote that we slapped our allies in the face when President Bush said your either with us of against us. Correct me if im wrong, but that was during the speech he said he would invade any nation harboring terrorists.

Yes and we invaded Afghanistan because they would not give up Osama Bin Laden. Hopefully we are getting closer to him now that Pakistan captured the no. 3 man. We are not going into Iraq to capture terrorists. Our allies were with us after September 11th. Maybe I'm too idealistic but I think that while they showed Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11 the majority of them felt sympathy for the families of 9/11. It is like here when they show massive demonstrations in downtown Portland but 99% of the people are at home watching reruns of Married with Children (myself included)

What good are allies if they dont do a damn thing for you? Honestly if the French and Brits do not want to invade Iraq then they can stay at home. Bush needs to say screw the UN and do what he feels is right.

THEY DO THINGS FOR US! Haven't you ever watched James Bond movies? The British have saved the world more times than can be imagined. Were there not allied troops in the first gulf war? How about in Afghanistan? Did not the French say they would support us during the Cuban missile crisis (which could have resulted in nuclear war). Wasn't it Malaysian armored personel carriers that performed the rescue operation in the Mogadishu (sp?). The US has always done the bulk of the fighting. We are the hyper power after all with the really good weapons. This will hopefully continue as we want to maintain our technological superiority.

I know most do not agree with this, but sometimes you gotta go against the grain and do what is right. As for all the hostility towards the US in the middle east...i saw screw them to, dont give em a cent. We have problems and poverty in the US, and that money would help a great deal. I have one more thing to add...all you people against invading Iraq...would you like to live there under a sadistic tyrant? Most likely no..so should why they? [/B]

I do not believe they should live under a sadistic tyrant! Still the US cannot be expected to invade every country where there is a sadistic tyrant. As you mentioned we have our own problems to deal with at home. It is important for us to have a strong military and have a strong technological edge over other nations (I am not anti military). Our young soldiers, however, should not be dying all over the world to depose sadistic tyrants when only another one will replace him when they leave. Those changes must happen internally in countries. National security or the security of our allies are the reasons to bring in the troops. It is hard to argue that Saddam represents an immediate threat to us when he can't even keep us from patroling the no fly zone (which Iraq has claimed is illegal). He tries to move anti aircraft units into it and they are destroyed. There is also the issue of civil unrest in countries and should we bring in the troops when people are getting massacred? That is a tough one. I suppose it is something we need to do but I'm always afraid of ending up in a situation where US peacekeeping troops are getting sniped after the conflict is over just because everyone resents his presence. That is not a proper end for John from Ohio who likes to play video games, paintball, motorcycling, and camping in his off time!

[shartley]

[1stdeadeye]

Now I have figured you out!

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Alrighty I will put down my assignment for a little to answer these questions.

First 1stdeadeye.

I will look in to the Palestinian situation in a little bit. All I know is that the Partition Plan of 1947 was approved by the majority of the voters in the UN and was put into effect. AS that website states. I will look into the other parts of it later when I get more time.

It isn't a conspiracy theory, it is simple logic. Who in the rightful minds would spend 10 billion dollars on a war without gaining something from it? Who in their right minds would spend 10 billion dollars on a war just to save some lives? I know the US wouldn't, I know any country wouldn't. So by going in there and getting rid of the present day government, the US will install a government friendly to them. And it just goes from there.


We get security and a bit more stability in a strategic region. Also $10 billion isn't that much anymore. The US government wastes far more then that every year. How much did we spend in the original Gulf War? Kuwait is still in OPEC. How much did we spend in Afghanistan? Is that a puppet regime?


My father was born in Paris; my mother was born in Berlin. Most of them spent their school years in foreign countries. And each one of them loved it. They never had a problem with hatred of the US. But my grandfathers had troubles when they went out to a restaurant in their military outfit. My dad graduated from Paris American High School in 1956. He then spent the next 2 years wondering around Paris until he came back to the US, joined the Army and got stationed in Germany. My dad told me that there in Germany he experience some resentment to the fact that he was there. Something he hasn't felt in his years of being over sees as a regular citizen living with the regular citizens.


Now I have figured out your true motivation. YOU ARE FRENCH! Keep arguing you cheese eating surrender monkey!

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy

Carter isn't my own kind. I am not a democrat.

since when did I say Carter was a democrat?

[Rebel46_99]

CollegeBoy

You know what's amazing CollegeBOY?

I know several people like you. You're one of those people that, even if the truth and facts of the matter were provided in still photos, multiple eye-witness accounts, video or even real-time TV and signed by The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost and your parents, it still couldn't be true because YOU say it isn't.

I have a 23 y/o son who is graduating after six years at the Univ. of Missouri-St. Louis. I thank God that he's not as screwed up as you are. (I ALMOST used a ban-incurring word)

Do us all a favor and take your Socialist bull crap to a board meant for these types of discussions.