IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[shartley]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
Didn't read the whole thread in detail, but doesn't seem like that's particularly necessary as much of it seems to be the same. And circumventing the fact it does seem to have drifted recently, I'll comment on the original thread.

The French don't like Americans? Considering the opinions and attitudes in this thread is that any wonder?

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
The French are cowards? The French know more about Battlefield honour, valour, and horror than Americans ever will. The French have lost more men defending their own country in a few DAYS than the US has lost during it's entire history. It's difficult to find any soil in France that wasn't once a battlefield where thousands or millions died.

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
If Americans consistently show the attitude of we're your allies only if you do everything we say, we'll help you as long as there's something in it for us, and once we've helped you, you have to eternally grateful. Is there any wonder about world mistrust?

[cphilip]

Being reported but unconfimed that we just took out 10 Iraqis Artillery positions with our Jets that they had moved up withing range of our troops. Also some kind of fighting in Basara going on. Nothing specific.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
The French are cowards? The French know more about Battlefield honour, valour, and horror than Americans ever will. The French have lost more men defending their own country in a few DAYS than the US has lost during it's entire history. It's difficult to find any soil in France that wasn't once a battlefield where thousands or millions died.

Fine I'll weigh in on this particular point you make.

One. I lost a Grandfather on Gold Beach at Normandy. A Grandfather I never got to know. My father grew up knowing his father sacrificed his life to remove the yoke of German occupation from the necks of the French.

He has never said he was angry at the circumstances in which he lost his father. He is angry at the attitude the French have now adopted towards this country. An attitude brought on by France's refusal to stand with her ally.

We have far more to be angry with the French, than they have with us.

Next time France gets rolled over by some dictator, don't bother calling. Leave a message, or better yet, call the UN. I'm sure they'd be willing to talk about it. At length.

Two. And this is directly related to the above point. It was the US and British soldiers that died FOR FRANCE. Not the other way around. You say American soldiers don't understand anything of war and valor when compared to the French? You say more french have died in a few days defending their country than my whole country has lost in it's entire history? This is so ludicris as to be laughable. The American Figting men and women have bailed the French out so many times it's hard to even keep count. As you so glaringly show.

Three. We are ridding the world of a serious menace to WORLD SECURITY. Not just us. EVERYONE. And if YOU cna't see that for your abject hatred of MY president then tough crap.

And as for your general slap at my country.

You and your country enjoy the benefits of having the world's only superpower as a neighbor. You enjoy the largesse of our economy. You enjoy the skills and technology of our superior health care system. You enjoy the security of having this benevolent neighbor who is willing to stick it's neck out to remove the chains of oppression from people ruled by dictators.

And you have the nerve to spit on it?

You Sir, may go to France.

[cphilip]

Folks when and if this battle starts I will close this one and there will be ONE and only one thread on the battle itself. So until then all related items should remain here. At the proper time this one will be closed and the other one will be allowed as long as it stays reasonably civil. At that point I would suggest we end the debate on why and concentrate on the safety of our people over there. I do not have any idea how long that will be so lets wrap it up as best we can.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife

And you have the nerve to spit on it?

You Sir, may go to France.

that is not what I said.

I do however greatly approve of the change.

[cphilip]

...I know but I changed it and it means the same thing!

[breg]

Army,
I feel much the same way you do. Speaking from an Air Force point of view.
I've found a lot of support here on AO, and I'm eternally grateful. You people make it easier to put this uniform on in the morning, knowing that the whole world doesn't hate the military.

Thanks,
Breg

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye

You didn't read it, but you'll comment anyway?
Well, I didn't waste my time with the repetitive insults. The signal to noise ratio is pretty low. I simply meant to state I read the signal on the first few pages until it started to diverge.

Now who is making opinionated statements. Seeing as how the US has come to the rescue of Europe when called, we don't know?

Actually the Americans didn't run to the rescue of Europe when called. Initially for many years the US claimed to be a disinteressted party and supplied Britain/Canada with supplies covertly. This was not American aid, but American industry profitting from the war and selling supplies.

Popular anti-american feeling (to which I do not subscribe but include to put things in perspective) is the Americans then got fully involved only when they finally saw themselves in danger from the attack in Pearl Harbour, but showed little interest in Europe. The influential in the US only really pushed for war in EUrope when they saw that Britain couldn't hold out much longer and they were risking losing all the profits from failure of Britain to pay the debts incurred. US industry couldn't support the idea of making a crippling financial loss on both the French and British.

While the American support and participation was crucial, the biggest gripe is that it is always over estimated by the US. Indeed much of the gripe may be that with all the US actually DID do, why is it they have to steal the honour in battles and actions that were not their doing (Think U-571)?

Just because all the planes, ships, and tanks have stars and stripes on them in the war films doesn't mean they were american. That sybol was chosen because it was the most visible of all military markings and used on all equipment could allow allies to easily identify each other on D-Day.

I suggest those who are truely interested in WWII history to rent/buy/borrow the TV series the World At War. Very good and thogrough analysis.

What is disgusting is that many Americans seem to have swallowed the doctrine of "With us or against us." Well, if you have any self worth you do things because you believe them to be just and have the courage to do them. Equally so, you refuse to do things because you believe your position to be just.

Canada's not helping this time. Does that mean you spite us and don't help us if we need help? The above attitude excludes the US form NATO as a whole. And if that is the attitude, get your troops off Canadian soil and defend your country from within your own borders.

Others have taken that I (and France) have demeaned past American effort. Not so. It's just that past heroics don't give you a pass on everthing indefinately. France and the rest of world not cheering the US on is questioning American intent and actions Now and in the Future.

BTW fighting in reverse does not count as valor?

Alright, I can recognize a smilie. But is it really appropriate? Do you honestly find being invaded multiple times and having your country's soil filled with the blood and bones of millions a laughing matter. With so little respect shown is it any wonder Americans are not particularily liked? Lack of respect for other annihilates any of the respect you may have earned.

Perhaps we shouldn't bring up Vietnam then. Huh? You'll use the poor excuse it wasn't a loss because it wasn't an official war? Oh, you mean the US faught illegal secret wars? (Look up the history of Laos. The war/slaugter that officially didn't happen. The most bombed country in the world courtesy of the USA.)

Europeans have much more respect for death than Americans I believe. It seems Americans are far quicker to treat war as a television amusement than a serious event. For the way many are talking it sounds as if you're cheering the latest football game.

Perhaps that maturity and sober though comes from being able to visit sites where even in peace time millions were executed (Hyde Park London or Place de la Concorde Paris).

It's nice to see that so many seem to think that because you fought hard and failed that you deserve no respect. Guess we can't expect you to stand up to the bullies at school or work. After all, if they're weak enough to lose, don't they deserve the help.

Extending the same analogy, just because you help stand up to one bully doesn't mean that those you help will stand behind you when you start bullying.

That's right the aid they need is our money! If you take the cash, accept the strings that go with it.
Make up your mind. Is the US the defender of the free world and the supporter of human rights and democracy, or is it simply a school yard bully pushing others around, bribing others to support them and punishing those that don't. That's harsh and simplistic as reality is somewhere between the two. The question/worry is where the US is now and towards which extreme are they currently rapidly advancing?

BTW there are 40 countries standing with the US on this!

And how many hundreds against? And of the 40 how many are simply bought by US cash?

Where are you getting your facts from? Saddam? Check out the factbook I posted earlier. This might actually force you to read some of this post though!

Ah the joy of propaganda. Figures don't lie but liers can figure. If I have the time to check your resources I may comment. Otherwise, so? I believe that the BBC, CBC, newspaper and internet sources I read are as valid as I can find.

As for Afghanistan, we are still working with them.

Yup. Work with the murderers and rapists as long as they're OUR murderers and rapists. Reward them by putting them in power without a vote and call it Democracy. What a wonderful job.

Even then, the hand picked new leaders have virtually no control outside Kabul and caos reigns.

BTW how many public executions has Afghanistan held in Soccer Stadiums since the Taliban was taken down?

Not too many since the US stopped paying the Taliban to hold them. Now they're all done in the privacy of the warlords strongholds far away from where media might create bad press.

Again Proof? Please! Rumer and inuendo are great weapons aren't they. Also can you say divestiture?

Hmm. Some proof of weapons in Iraq or proof of illegal trade from France, Germany, or others would be appropriate. Wouldn't it? Sorry. I forgot. We're playing the game of US citizens and gov't are innocent before proven guilty but the rest of the world has to provide iron clad proof of sainthood.

DIVESTITURE. Said it. Of course the US gov't is absolutely clean on all the deals it brokers. Air America, Iran-Contra, .....

Now if you're going to make such an accusation you have proof right? Seems that's the burben you put on me, so live up to it yourself.

As for proof of American profiteering in the event of a war, look at Cheney and Haliburton.
Didn't have time to check them out but a Google gives:
www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/ 2001/6/24/80648.shtml
www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/ stories/10/28/cheney.king/

https://www.evote.com/News/ev080820023.html

www.malaysiakini.com/foreignnews/ 200303120111046662909.php
power.about.com/library/weekly/ aa260202a.htm?PM=ss12_power
people.uncw.edu/zervosg/PR238/Cheney.htm
and many others....

Or the fact that the current cliamte certainly makes (still non-functioning) missile defense system a good buy (Bush, his wife, and Cheney were on the boards of all the major companies involved in the project).

Yet he still challenges the No Fly zones with SAMs and fighters. He is facing severe consequences now and he did not flinch. He wouldn't sell any WMD cause he is such a nice guy, right?

And everytime he challenges them, another fighter, SAM, radar site gets destroyed. The US/Soviets challenged each other all the time, North/South Korea challenge each other all the time, I'm sure the US/British/Canadians challenge Saddam all the time by pushing the boundaries. That's the military game. The tiger is allowed to pace in the cage and growl isn't it?

All that US intelligence boiled down to artists impressions and empty buildings didn't it. If it's a regime that will sell weapons that's got you in a tizzy wake up. First lets find them and second North Korea already sells scuds around the world to anyone who'll pay and there's a lot of old Russian technology in empovrished ex-soviet states. So what's your plan for US world domination/imposition of will?

Actually, that is not what Chirac said. They would help with the clean-up of such attacks. Not fight!

Well considering the US has so many weapons all you were looking for was support anyways. Even by your version it's not what Bush claimed he said in his address.

Maybe you should go back and actuallyREAD this thread.

Have read enough signal ignored most of the noise. Continuing to scan and filter.

Also bring facts, not rumors, eh?

You'll provide the approved sources I suppose. Burden of proof goes both ways and I don't have time to create a bibliography.

An interesting take with a little more indepth analysis on the situation can be found here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2855697.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2002/conflict_with_iraq/default.stm

Now being British, they're still heavily Anti-French......

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by breg
Army,
I feel much the same way you do. Speaking from an Air Force point of view.
I've found a lot of support here on AO, and I'm eternally grateful. You people make it easier to put this uniform on in the morning, knowing that the whole world doesn't hate the military.

Thanks,
Breg

I have the utmost respect for those who wear the uniforms. It's a job I'd love to have to learn the skills.

However, it's the politicians that order the army I do not trust or agree with.

What I respect the most is that military officers can go off to do the nastiest job asked of them even when they may be against what is going on.

But of course if we ask the soldiers of other nations not to use the excuse of "I was only following orders." it does raise a bit of a conundrum.

That's why I would never be cut out for a soldiers life.

[cphilip]

One fact often misstated here is that the first "Operation Desert Storm" which was the one and only "operation" of "The Gulf War" ended in surrender of Iraq and surrender is an end to a conflict/war. In fact that is not the case. What is going on now is still "The Gulf War". When the conflict ended, a cease fire was signed , contigent on Saddam destroying his WMD and stop his unprovoked aggression. In exchange for that we would not go in and take them by force. All the details aside they included UN overseeing that destruction peice by piece and the no fly zone was hammered out all of which they agreed to. So although that phase of this conflict stopped in 1991, the war never officially ended. It was left open as a cease fire. And so now we are holding Saddam and his regime in contempt of that cease fire aggreement, by not abiding the UN resolutions it required him to obey. There are many of them including the WMD as well as violating no fly zone and cooperation for the cease fire to be upheld. So in fact this is indeed still "The Gulf War" ...however another "Operation" of that same war. So indeed technicaly we are not starting anything...we are finishing it.

[Rebel46_99]

"Just because all the planes, ships, and tanks have stars and stripes on them in the war films doesn't mean they were american. That sybol was chosen because it was the most visible of all military markings and used on all equipment could allow allies to easily identify each other on D-Day."

Wrong.

The distinguishing mark for allied aircraft at D-Day was 3 broad white stripes on each wing. Otherwise they carried their own national insignia.


DW

[Jack_Dubious]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

But of course if we ask the soldiers of other nations not to use the excuse of "I was only following orders." it does raise a bit of a conundrum.

Thats cause they are following "evil" orders.


JDub

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife
You and your country enjoy the benefits of having the world's only superpower as a neighbor. You enjoy the largesse of our economy. You enjoy the skills and technology of our superior health care system. You enjoy the security of having this benevolent neighbor who is willing to stick it's neck out to remove the chains of oppression from people ruled by dictators.

PLEASE!!!! We share the largest peaceful boundary with Canada in the world/in history. This is what is driving me nuts! All of this with us or against us rhetoric is driving a wedge between us and our friends. Yes FRIENDS, trading partners, etc. I am not going to look up the figures but I'm willing to bet our trade with Canada, Britain, France, etc far outstrips the middle east.

As far as "willing to stick it's neck out to remove the chains of oppression from people ruled by dictators" what fantasy world are you living in??? Please turn off Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. There are dictators and oppressors all over the world. We do not go in and remove all of them and NOR DO I THINK WE SHOULD. There are cases when it is in OUR best interest and maybe at that time it is appropriate. This is not an anti-american statement but a realistic one. Do I want John Doe in OUR army to be stuck in his wheelchair for the rest of his life because we felt he should go to Timbuktu and fight evil and oppression? NO! There are times when it is necessary which is why I believe in a strong military.

As for the statements by the Canadian gentleman to the north I do not agree with everything you typed. I can understand why any of the British sailors involved with the operation portrayed in U-571 would be pissed off and feel slighted but it was done for commercial reasons. The US market is much bigger than other markets. Don't be offended. After all we had an Aussie (Mel Gibson) in the lead role of the patriot! Plus we are the banner that everyone unites around. Just take the movie Independence Day when we defeated the aliens in less than ONE WEEK with a Macintosh computer

[Collegeboy]

I surely wish people would brush up on their history before posting nonsense. And yes this is directed to you FOL.

When did your relatives immigrate here from Britain FOL?

The US denied, that is right DENIED the offer by France to help them out against the Germans. That is why many French dislike America. The US only went into France when it was evident that the eastern part would be won by the Russians, and the over all war would be over. 1943 Conference at Tehran (I think that was the one) is when the allies new the war was going to be over, just a matter of time. The Russians without US aide stopped the German advance and starting pushing the Germans out of Russia. The US got involved when there was a fear that Russia would go through Europe. Now this is not why the soldiers fought, but this is why the politicians and such decided to send their boys to fight. They could care less about the French people. Quick quiz tell me what these numbers stand for. 30,000,000; 60,000,000; 450,000; 375,000

As to WWI, the US hardly did anything. The French mostly and the British and the Canadians (who i believe never lost a battle) did the bulk fo the fighting and the winning and the US was Johnny come late and collected its piece of the pie.

Before you say I am bashing the soldiers which I know you will for that is who you are and what you like to do, both of my Grandfathers served in WWII. One was assigned to aide the French Resistance forces in France, and the other was apart of the Red Ball Express.

[shartley]