The Official Iraq War Thread...

[FactsOfLife]

I'm talking mainly about the French and UN's effort to now stick their useless noses into the rebuilding of Iraq.

Long term they need us a lot worse than we need them.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Hamster Huey
Provided we find a smoking gun, as it seems we have, I'm very curious as to how the French, Germans, and Russians will react.

No because they knew it all along and were prepared to do business with them anyway. And did. And they had many things to be embarassed about in prostituting themselves with this regime. And they were prepared to protect that at all costs and did so. And they then stirred the emotinal pot in their own countries for support by defending their stand on pacifistic grounds. And now they would look silly if they admitted that that was wrong. And all along while acting all the Pacifists they were supporting and supplying arms and repression of Iraqis for money. They will continue to delcare that diplomacy was working even though they were part of the whole reason it would not. Had they not supported Saddam for so long he would have had to disarm. They kept him from suffering enough loss to do so. They saw too it he received enough of the oil for Food profits to continue his arming and building palaces and such. And then they will insist on a role in the rebuilding so they can recoup some of the lost income from thier lost contracts with Saddam. And we will move on. But always knowledgable that they can be bought...

[aaron_mag]

I have no problem with taking out Saddam. I still think arrangements could have been made through the U.N. but I will not argue that point as we have already argued it to death.

I cannot stand, however, the criticism of the French, Germans, and Russians that we spew while we wave the flag and beat our chests. We supported Iraq against Iran. We sold them weapons. Chemical weapons were used against both Iran and the Kurds and yet our support continued. We did not want Iran overrunning Iraq as they were an important oil producing nation to us. Then Saddam turned and bit the hand that was feeding him. I am not saying that our policy was wrong or right. It was not really a democratic or republican stance as both parties often inherit foriegn relations from their predescessor.

What I can't stand is listening to us lie to ourselves and be eager to throw the first stone. It is hypocritical. Do I think economic interest are at the heart of French, German, and Russian opposition? YES! Of course they are not willing to admit this officially. They hide it in all these other grounds. The fact is, however, that WE ARE NO DIFFERENT. So lets accept that and end the Euro/US strife.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by cphilip
And then they will insist on a role in the rebuilding so they can recoup some of the lost income from thier lost contracts with Saddam. And we will move on. But always knowledgable that they can be bought...

And you'll expect the rest of the world to believe that the involvement of Haliburton and other US companies in the rebuilding had nothing to do with the decision to fight or exclude the UN. If it wasn't for the oil, the terrain suited to the US army's tactics and weaponry, and the hyperbole surrounding the "war on terrorism" Iraq wouldn't have been a target in the first place. Add to that the policies of the AEI which counts many of the Bush administration as signees/members.

Before anyone gets all "holier than thou" on me, explain why there's no move to oust all the despotic leaders in Africa that are hiding rebels and terrorists that attack neighboring countries? Hmm. That's right. The US did invade one. The only one with American oil interests. How surprising.

You'll also take the intellectually dishonest route of ignoring the fact that the US supplied Saddam with much of his initial weaponry. That the chemicals he used to kill the Kurds and the Shiites were sold to him by the US as were the helicopters that sprayed them. Even all of the antidote being found right now was sold by American companies with the blessing of the US government. That the bill to sanction Iraq and ban all commercial trade was quashed by the Reagan administration due to lobbying by the department of commerce and industry groups under the argument of "if we don't sell it to them some one else will". Even the weapons not bought from the US were certainly helped along with US money. No-one in the US seemed to care where Saddam was stashing all the money while they bought oil from him. Even under the embargo Saddam and his family made hundreds of millions selling oil. Sure the US may have only been buying the UN approved shipments, but not much noise or action was being made to stop the illegal trade.

Anyone with any honesty has known for a long time that the US (along with many others) can be bought and that economic issues come long before worries about human rights or other such evils.

Another piece of reality Americans need to come to grips with is that apart from middle east oil money much of the money supporting terrorism comes from the US. The IRA for one is very grateful for US support over the years. Surprising the British are so quick to fall into line with the US considering that. And ironic that the current talks are in Northern Ireland.

"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and all that...

If the US has decided to change it ways, then good. However don't go looking to bask in glory and gratitude. Push the we're the best, we've never done anything wrong, you owe us for everything buttons for too long or too hard and any gratitude won will quickly turn to disdain, distrust, and perhaps outright hatred.

Back to Iraq, Chemical Ali is a prime example. He'll be missed by few and it's a good thing he's dead. But considering he wouldn't have been able to earn his nickname without American supplies before the first Gulf War and American inaction after the first Gulf War, don't expect people to be cheering the US in gratitude too loudly. Much of the world reaction over his execution probably amounts more to a feeling of "about time". The feeling of the Shiites and Kurds seems to be more that the current action _may_ forgive past wrongs, but they certainly won't feel beholden. Even in Afghanistan the feelings are similar. The US after all was financing and supporting the Taliban even as late as 2001.

aaron_mag seems to have a good handle on the truth.

[Hamster Huey]

Well said, Slarty. (I can call you Slarty, can't I?)

Ignoring economic motivations on the part of any administration, domestic or foreign, would be foolish. At home, I think Cheney is attracting a lot of unwanted attention with all of the love that Halliburton and its subsidiaries have gotten in both Iraqi conflicts. It might be a good idea for him to speak up and explain some of these troublesome questions away.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

That the bill to sanction Iraq and ban all commercial trade was quashed by the Reagan administration due to lobbying by the department of commerce and industry groups under the argument of "if we don't sell it to them some one else will".

I don't agree with all of what SlartyBartFast says but the above is true. It should be noted that that hindsight is 20/20 and it was a different era during the Reagan administration. I think that many people look back on the Reagan administration and say it had a strong U.S. foriegn policy. The same could be said for Bush Sr. He basically got screwed over by Perot/No New Taxes. Many would argue that the way Clinton handled Mogadishu was extremely bad and Kosovo good. I feel that Bush Jr. handled Afghanistan well and even Iraq. What they have totally failed on, however, is the diplomatic relations with our allies. Suddenly we are in name calling matches with our closest allies each digging for any dirt we can find on each other. The fact is, however, that we live in a REAL world with that is full of such things. My point is let's not hold all other nations to one ideal while we hold ourselves to another. The politicians (and fools like Limbaugh) will spew rhetoric but as intelligent citizens we should at least be able to accept the truth/reality.

[shartley]

[branman444]

Originally posted by shartley

AMEN!!!!! and AMEN!!!!!!
My dad is a PGL (manager) at Halliburton and just because that company is the biggest in the world everyone take a punch at them. I get so tired of hearing about this that it makes me sick. If the French are to big of panzez to get up and help then let them stay over there and wallow in there misery. If you cant stand and fight then you cant expect the spoils! If you want to help in control and rebuild then you get yourself in the war. No French stuff for me German or Russian either. As far as I am concerned they dont get any rights to anything after the VICTORY and NO MORE UN!!!!! You see how fare that got us our troops found what we are looking for 120 time faster. While te UN was over there talking "Oh those are just fertilizers and bug spray and stuff to make foam rubber out of SH was putting it in warheads. Oh let me guess he was going to launch it out over his fields to kill all those little bugs. No he would have used them (if he dont go ahead and try) on his OWN PEOPLE much less our military. MY .02. France ,Germany ,Russia line up for your spanken next. I know this will get some good replies but it wont change my opinion on the matter. I have a hard head and if I could I would be right over there helping our troops. GO Pres. Bush (finally someone man enough to do the job that needed to be done) and GO Coalition forces!!!!! You guys ROCK.

[Rebel46_99]

Sitting there last nite watching MSNBC, FOX and CNN thru the eyes of Abu Dhabi TV as 2 American M1A1's sat on a bridge. And then, you see concrete chips flying and the camera slowly falls over to give you a clear view of the balcony floor. Talk about eerie!

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
I have no problem with taking out Saddam. I still think arrangements could have been made through the U.N. but I will not argue that point as we have already argued it to death.

I cannot stand, however, the criticism of the French, Germans, and Russians that we spew while we wave the flag and beat our chests. We supported Iraq against Iran. We sold them weapons. Chemical weapons were used against both Iran and the Kurds and yet our support continued. We did not want Iran overrunning Iraq as they were an important oil producing nation to us. Then Saddam turned and bit the hand that was feeding him. I am not saying that our policy was wrong or right. It was not really a democratic or republican stance as both parties often inherit foriegn relations from their predescessor.

What I can't stand is listening to us lie to ourselves and be eager to throw the first stone. It is hypocritical. Do I think economic interest are at the heart of French, German, and Russian opposition? YES! Of course they are not willing to admit this officially. They hide it in all these other grounds. The fact is, however, that WE ARE NO DIFFERENT. So lets accept that and end the Euro/US strife.

Yes we did support Iraq. THEN. It was a simple choice of the lesser of two evils. Get over it.

[Hamster Huey]

I think you missed the point of aaron_mag's statement. He's not saying that we shouldn't have aided Iraq at that point in time. Rather, he's saying that we're not as clean and infallible as many of us would like to believe, myself included.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Hamster Huey
I think you missed the point of aaron_mag's statement. He's not saying that we shouldn't have aided Iraq at that point in time. Rather, he's saying that we're not as clean and infallible as many of us would like to believe, myself included.

I had hardly missed AM's point. He's usually well spoken if in my opinion to the left of myself, which means wrong.

[pbzmag]

Why are we in Iraq? Maybe this is one reason.

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by pbzmag
Why are we in Iraq? Maybe this is one reason.

Perhaps a good reason. But hope the US is prepared to go into trillions of dollars of debt with all the other backwater hell holes that jail children or make them serve in the army.

[1stdeadeye]

Okay

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

Perhaps a good reason. But hope the US is prepared to go into trillions of dollars of debt with all the other backwater hell holes that jail children or make them serve in the army.

Maybe next time you Canucks will step up to the plate and help us do it eh?



Just think the next crisis will be in the Congo. Ugawndan Forces slaughtered 1000 Congolese men, women, and children in just under 3 hours! Yet the League of African Nations, headed up by South Africa wants no outside help. The UN can Monitor, but they will enforce it themselves. I guess we should let them. They are doing wonders in Zimbabwae!