Womd

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by Collegeboy


In the International Arena there is moral high ground, and right now it resides with the Palestinians. I love how you use terrorist bombings for the Palestinians, and Collateral damage for the Israelis.

No they don't! Both sides are being routinely condemned for their actions. As for my verbiage, look it up. They are appropriate terms!

Terrorist target civilians!
Collateral Damage is a by-product of Israeli strikes against said terrorists!


I said you 'logic' is faulty. That doesn't equate that the majority of Palestinians wanting Israel wiped off the planet.

Using your logic you would be inclined to think that the vast majority of Israelis want every Palestinian dead, for that is what Sharon wants (as his past actions dictate)

This coming from the guy who said the Israelis were told by the bible to kill all palestinians!

Oh and for my logic being faulty, prove me wrong.My argument is more substantioal then your "You are wrong because I said so!"

First of all God did tell the Israelis to go into the holy land and kill all the inhabitants. They killed all but one; out of this one grew the Palestinian race. I am not saying it is true, but it does come from the bible, so take that for what it is worth to you.

Your own statement doesn't make since. Just because they voted for him means they have to think that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of this earth.

Also Palestinians using your logic are not targeting civilians. They are targeting those soldiers that are in civilian clothing that cowardly hide themselves amongst the population.

Yes, Israel right now is in the wrong for they are the ones forcing Palestinians to live in camps, and occupy land that they have been told to get off. The world sees Palestinians as fighting for their freedom from the oppression of the Israelis. Until Israel moves back to its 1948 boarder, the public opinion will be on the Palestinians side.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


First of all God did tell the Israelis to go into the holy land and kill all the inhabitants. They killed all but one; out of this one grew the Palestinian race. I am not saying it is true, but it does come from the bible, so take that for what it is worth to you.

Chapter and verse please?

You are a tool!

Your own statement doesn't make since. Just because they voted for him means they have to think that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of this earth.

When they support his party and the mainstay of their platform is the destruction of Israel makes sense tHAT THEY SUPPORT HIS PLATFORM AS WELL!

Also Palestinians using your logic are not targeting civilians. They are targeting those soldiers that are in civilian clothing that cowardly hide themselves amongst the population.

Not when they blow up 10 to 15 year old kids waiting in line at a club!

You sir are a tard!

Yes, Israel right now is in the wrong for they are the ones forcing Palestinians to live in camps, and occupy land that they have been told to get off. The world sees Palestinians as fighting for their freedom from the oppression of the Israelis. Until Israel moves back to its 1948 boarder, the public opinion will be on the Palestinians side.

To the victors the spoils. They conquered that land after THEY WERE ATTACKED BY THEIR NEIGHBORS!!!! WHat they give back is up to them.

I AM NOW DONE WITH YOU AND YOUR TWISTED LOGIC!!!! I hope you are truly not as big a tard as you come off being!

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
1DE, it is, however, somewhat understandable (though not for lack of a better word, good.) that Palestinians use terrorism rather than an army. If you were a fanatic who wanted freedom from an American backed country would you fight fair? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Then it wouldn't ever be possible for you to win. The rules of war are there for a reason. The Palestinians are extremely fortunate that thus far the Israelis have by and large followed the rules of war. It is a matter of time (weeks, months, years, who knows) before the Israelis simply can't afford to do so anymore. And when that happens that Palestinians will be wiped out. Hopefully they'll come to senses long before then.

If they abandon their terrorist activities and just start peacefully protesting they would win whatever they wanted in a matter of weeks. It would be impossible for Israel to justify to the world (and the US) doing anything but complying with the road map if there were no attacks. But, the Palestinians seem destined to never figure that out.

And they're not fighitng for their freedom, they have it. Israel doesn't rule their territory. They don't hold sway over their parliment. They're fighting for land that they want (because they feel it's rightfully theirs, a claim that has many angles).

[1stdeadeye]

Newt,

These guys are all yours! I am fed up with their inane rantings.

You want an example of how to win world opinion and your freedom from a vastly superior armed presence? Try Ghandi and India!

C U L8R

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy


CB. Terrorism is not meant to demoralize and army, it's intention is to kill civillians and to sow fear into the unarmed populace. It has nothing to do with any military strategy and everything to do with levying enough fear and instability to effect political change, and is not a military tactic. Guerilla war would be a legitimate tactic, using the Palstinian fighters to conduct small raids, skirmishers, bombings on military targets, ambushes on supply conveys, and things of that nature. Blowing up malls is not a military tactic, it's the refuge of evil.

And for the billionth time, the Palestinian people did not attack; certain terrorist groups that the Palestinians or the PLO have no control over did so. Israel has to remove themselves from the illegally held land to turn the blame away from them and put it on the Palestinians.

Well, in that case the Israelis didn't attack, just the IDF which the average Israeli can't control.

Give me a break. The terrorists live in their streets and neighborhoods and yet the "innocent" people do nothing. Nobody expects them to take up armed resistance against these thugs, but when they harbor these people, willingly and knowingly there are sometimes consequences for those actions. And the PLO refuses to take control of the situation. They have no will to even try to clamp down on terrorism, and some of the links to terrorism go directly to the PLO. They are a feckless organization, at best they are guilty of complacency and at worst a full fledged partner in terror.

[1stdeadeye]

To all of those innocent palestinians I say this:

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!

If they want their country they must not support the terror infrastructure. They must move to passive resistence! Civil Disobediance!

Oh CB about that Battle of New Orleans crack. That was Guerilla Warfare, not terrorism. Terrorism would have been if americans blew themselves up in the streets of london to kill brits!

Now I am done!

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
That is the problem with how you view things. The world is not black or white, there is no clear cut good or evil, there is no clear cut right or wrong. That is reality; your thinking only leads to a wishful reality.

Yes, there is actually. Arafat is evil. He seeks to murder and to kill innocents and push them to the sea simply for existing. The Terrorists are evil, for they too seek to kill and murder Israelis simply for existing. Those that intentionally harbor the terrorists are evil, for through their aid are those people able to kill and murder. The real innocents, the ones who have taken no part in the conflict though action are the good. They are the ones who are being persecuted in this war. The IDF soldier that holds his fire to avoid killing the wrong person is good. The terrorist that intentionally detonates in a bus full of civillians is evil.


The actions of the terrorist are taking place during a declared war. Jihad, a declared war against the enemies of Islam. Terrorism is an age old tactic of warfare. It is a valid form of warfare just as lining two armies should to should and shooting at each other Napoleonic style was considered a criteria of war. Just as strategic bombings or carpet bombings are considered standard warfare.

You are so deluded blood is beginning to pour out of my eyelids.

It is a tactic of fear aimed solely at civillians. It is not justifiable.

Again, how is it ok for terrorists to aim at civillians intentionally but Israel should be condemned for fighting these terrorists in their hideouts and accidentally killing bystanders? Hypocrite.

The allied fired bombed Hamburg so bad that a cyclone of fire rained through the air. They found innocent people boiled alive inside pools of water, they founded people burnt to ashes inside basements. The allies purposely bombed a city full of innocent people. Am I saying that is wrong, no, it is war, and war is hell. But I am saying for one to condemn the Palestinians for trying to gain freedom from the repressive actions of the IDF, means the same condemnation needs to be extend to all armies as of recent and some before.

The Allies were targetting military and production facilities. Now, they were doing it with what they had available at the time, 40 years before smart munitions were invented. They were invented percisly because of the collateral damage that occured from bombings, and through the decades we have become much better at bombing, and as was demostrated in Iraq, we can bomb with such percision as to keep civiallian casaulties much lower then ever before. And we will continue to develop new technology to bring that rate even lower. The terrorists on the other hand are trying to make the rate higher, but tragetting buses, malls, and other places where civillians live, on purpose.

Palestinians in these camps do NOT live like we do. We are not threatened with your house being bulldozed down; we are not threatened with getting stripped searched just for going to the store for milk and bread. We are not in fear every night that our building is going to be hit with a bomb while we are sleeping. We are not in fear every night that our building will be hit with missiles. We are not in fear every time we go to get some food that we will be hit by PDF machine gun fire. Now the same has to be said about the life of the Israelis. By you saying that the life of a Palestinian is the same as ours, shows how much you do not understand the situation.

Guess how many terrorists I harbor in my home? Zero. If I did I'm sure I would except some kind of retaliation from law enforcement here (they'd probably seize my home instead of knocking it down though).

Land acquired in a war that is not given to you in a formal treaty is occupied land and according to the UN is illegal for you to hold. Now land taken in a war and given to you in a treaty is different.

And Israel has agreed to treaties that would return most of the land to the states it acquired it from in exchange for (in most drafts of the treaties) the Golan heights, and the cessation of terrorist attacks.

If the terror stops the process can and (hopefully) will move foward. But so long as the attacks conitnue Sharon will not comply with the peace process, since he would be the only one doing it.

ALthough, I still thnk he should. I still believe he should fully comply and then just wait for the Palestinians to still not comply and then declare war on their new legitimate state and level it. But, he's too stubborn for that, and it's a pity.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
No, not all or even most of the Palestinians want the Jews out of the Middle East. That is only propaganda spread by the western media and soaked up by people like you.

Well, that's a lie. They are taught, by your beloved PLO, from early childhood to hate and kill Jews and the West. That's something that should be remedied, but never under Arafat.

Yes Miscue did trivialize their deaths. If me saying that I will include the deaths of those on 911 with all other deaths in the world in my post is trivializing their deaths, then clearly someone using their deaths to justify something that has nothing to do with them and had no change of even threatening is trivializing their deaths. I guess since his name is not collegeboy, and he is a mod, he follows by a different set of rules.

STOP CRYING ABOUT THAT

You were disrectful. We all asked you to stop. You thumbed your nose at us and just kept on going. What do you want from us? We pleaded with you to just give us the one memorial without any of your nonsense and you just couldn't do it. You just had to keep fighting with us and all we wanted for was for you to just give us the actual 2 year commerative date as a day where we didn't argue about it. But you refused.

Miscue's point was that apathy is the glove to which evil slips his hand (I love that quote, I forget where I heard it, some movie I think). Simply put, 9/11 is a powerful lesson of why we must remain vigilant. He does no disservice to those people that died in that attack by remembering that lesson. IN fact, people that do not remember that lesson and that do not learn from their tragic death do a disservice to their memories.

Moral high ground holds a lot in the international arena. Who ever holds the moral high ground gets the majority of the international arena to push the other into submission. Hence why Palestine holds the moral agenda right now and the majority of the world supports them and their plight.

Wrong, want to try again?

They are the terrorists. Israel are the people being attacked by thugs.

The world opinion is amazing splintered depending on where you poll. Basically what it boils down to is the Middle East strongly condemns Israel and so do countires that either A) have large populations of Muslims (France is a good example) or B) countries that make a lot of money selling equipment to Muslim countries (Russia and China are good examples). In most other countries the topic tends to be avoided, as to avoid offending the oil masters.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
You said you meant as a way of saying that Iraq and other invasions are necessary to make sure another 911 does not happen.

I then showed you how Iraq has never and didn't pose a threat to the US. I then said that you are trivializing their deaths. I then said that I think that it was distastful and wrong and that you should receive a warning. I then said that I doubt that will ever happen.

The same Iraw that tried to assassinate an ex president? That Iraq never posed a threat to us? In any way?

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
The problem with the Kurdish statement is that happened in the 1980's when the US was supporting Saddam and his actions, we turned a blind eye to those actions, even though our own soldiers were fighting for him in that war. So to use those deaths then to justify an invasion now is rather wrong, in Bosnia we went in to stop the genocide, we did not try and go in for a genocide that happened 20 years before.

Then our mistake was in allowing it to happen in the first place (and it was our mistake, a terrible one that cost many lives). And while we can't take back that mistake, we've assured it won't happen again.

I really could care less what Miscue meant by his post. For I feel we should all be able to say what ever our views are without having to worry about being banned if they offend someone too much. The only reason I am bringing this up is to put out the double standard of this board. I got a warning for simply including all other who died into my memorial post on 911. Some other guy did the same thing and nothing happened to him. Miscue post a post that uses there deaths to justify something that can not be justified, and nothing happens.

He didn't offend the whole board. You did.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aaron_mag
Oh my god!!! You spend one day off the net and there are pages and pages of posts.

C'mon dude, you knew that would happen

First off I don't have a clue or an opinion on the DU weapons issues. Army works with them everyday so I'm guessing he knows what he is talking about. If we ever debate the value of nursing homes/assisted living/retirement centers I expect you guys to stand up and pay attention to my worldly knowledge!!!!

Please, not a assisted living debate. I don't think I have the strength :)

Now I disagree on the Israeli issue. We prop Israel up with tons of money and weapons. If they truly don't need the money why don't we stop giving it to them. We do this in other areas where we consider the U.S. to have a vested interest (South Korea, Taiwan, etc.) so I'm not saying this is fundamentally bad. I am saying, however, that Israel doesn't deserve any occupied territory UNLESS the U.S. says that they are entitled to it. So I'm actually not even arguing that they should even give it up or not. What I'm saying is that the argument that this it is the spoils of war does NOT apply to them because they are NOT an independent nation that stands on their own two feet.

And intersting theory to be sure. They are a sovereign nation though, and are as independent as any other nation that takes economic aid (Turkey and North Korea come immediatly to mind). But, it is certainly an intersting notion.

Now my opinion is that they will never see peace in the region unless they give most of that territory back. But this was not what we were debating. If they truly are capable of defending their own borders without U.S. money then lets stop giving them tons of money! They are not a third world country in need of economic development are they?

Well, that's where we disagree. I don't think it matters if they give up the territory, as far as the goal of destroying Israel goes. But, I think they should abide by the roadmap anyway, and wait for Palestine to fall through on their obligations.

If, however, they feel they need the aid for the continuation of the Israeli state than shut up and talking about what you "deserve" because of what the U.S. has done in the past. The same rules do NOT apply.

It is an interesting notion to be sure. Does that mean we can tell all the African States we keep on life support that we're in charge of them now too?

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
First of all God did tell the Israelis to go into the holy land and kill all the inhabitants. They killed all but one; out of this one grew the Palestinian race. I am not saying it is true, but it does come from the bible, so take that for what it is worth to you.

If Israel, with is nuclear arsenal, tanks, fighter jets, and Apache helicopters wanted to kill every Palestinian why haven't they?

No really CB. Why have the blood thirsty Israelis with all their mordern military equipment not wiped the Palestinians out?

The terrorists are trying to kill all the Israelis, they just haven't succeeded yet.

Your own statement doesn't make since. Just because they voted for him means they have to think that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of this earth.

They are indoctinated from the time they are very young to hate and wish for the destruction of Israel. How do you now know this?

Also Palestinians using your logic are not targeting civilians. They are targeting those soldiers that are in civilian clothing that cowardly hide themselves amongst the population.

You have completely lost it. The terrorists by detonating at a pizza joint intentionally killing women and children are justified because there may be a off duty soldier in there somewhere?

Yes, Israel right now is in the wrong for they are the ones forcing Palestinians to live in camps, and occupy land that they have been told to get off. The world sees Palestinians as fighting for their freedom from the oppression of the Israelis. Until Israel moves back to its 1948 boarder, the public opinion will be on the Palestinians side.

CB. How many times do you need to be told? The Israelis really were dismanteling settlements and withdrawing, but then the terror started back up again and that process was put on hold.

You know, there are two sides here, and the Palestinians seem to want Israel to make one way concessions. If they stopped detonating themselves on the streets of Israel then Sharon would start pulling settlements back again and get back on the road map. Right now only one side has made any concessions, and it is Israel.

[Albinonewt]

Here's my question for CB (and anyone else).

Do you support the intentional targetting of civillians by terrorists?

Do you feel that the terrorists should continue to prevent the roadmap from being implemented by refusing to enter into a ceasefire agreement (or in some cases entering into one and not honoring it)?

Do you think that Arafat should remain in power and should not be held accoutable for his actions, the actions of his government, and the actions of those his government supports?

[aaron_mag]

Newt-

All cash comes with a price. When you get aid from your parents you are subject to some of their mandates. You are not truly "independent". If you are in school and they are paying they have the right to revoke the parental financial aid if they find you majoring in druken binges for example.

As I said that point was not a direct argument as to what the U.S. should/should not do with the influence that we gain from financial aid. I have my opinions but that was not my point. All I am saying is that don't argue right of conquest or bring up California (which we took from Mexico). It is not the same since the U.S. was not receiving military and financial aid from another country. In essence all I am saying is that it is perfectly reasonable for the U.S. to demand that Israel give back its holdings (or not) because we prop them up. Anyone who says we don't is blind. I mean look at the weaponry that we allow them to buy at very favorable prices (not to mention the cash we GIVE them).

[Collegeboy]

Again we fall into the idea of you all not reading my words carefully. I am against what the Palestinians are doing; I am against what the Israelis are doing. All I am doing is providing the other side of the story, to show you all the ironicness the double sidedness of your complete support of Israel.

A Israeli shoots a missile or drops a bomb on an apartment building, or opens fire into a mob of Palestinians and it is justified because there is a terrorist in them.

But a Palestinian blows himself up in a group of people to get a soldier, and it is not justified.

A Palestinian is supposedly (a lie) taught from the beginning to hate the Jewish and to kill everyone they see, yet an Israeli is taught from the beginning to love the Palestinians and to pray for peace.

Albinonewt.

The statement about God is to the comment that the Palestinians started the conflict.

The Israelis was not giving back all the land, just certain parts of it. And the Palestinians did not attack it, some terrorist groups did. Big difference. As long as Israel is in the land, and is not willing to give it all back, these groups will be able to use Israel as the great devil, and garner "support" for themselves.

I didn't offend the board either, or if you was offended by my including others in my memorial post, you might not want to post on boards for you have a problem. What about my post that supposedly offended people but didn't offend the same people when posted by someone else?

When asked not to post on a subject I did not post (there was a thread that asked me not to post, and guess what, I DID NOT), The thread asked where we was, and people started posting threads memorializing those who died. I simple said that I will add in all those who die everyday in with my memorial. That is all, should not have offended anyone. But I got a warning for nothing, the other guy didn't get one, Miscue didn't get one. Just the typical double standard.

1de. Would you like to read the sentence after my Battle of NO statement.