Womd

[Albinonewt]

Re: omg miscue just get out of this thread

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paintballguy429
No, 1stdeadeye argued that Hussein has used WOMD in the past. That is not true even under the Bush definition.

People that have disagreed with that statement

Bill Clinton
Jaques Chirac
Wesley Clark
John Kerry
Tom Daschle
Ted Kennegy
Kofi Annan

and the list keeps going. Everybody knows that he verifiably had those weapons. What we don't know for certain is what he did with them. It seems very unlikely that he destoyed them since he was willing to lose his entire country just because he refused to prove they were destroyed. It's not impossible I suppose, but the man's been a survivor his whole life and it makes no sense for him to go down when he didn't have to.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by paintballguy429
You suggested that if we didn't invade Iraq, it was very possible that another 9/11 could take place. Of course, you didn't bother to actually support it, but I guess that's ok since your a mod

No, he suggested that we need to be ever vigilant. And we do.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aaron_mag
Now lets talk about the Palestinian issue. One of the dumbest things about our post 9/11 foriegn policy is that we basically gave Israel the freedom to use whatever military means they want. All they have to do is say that they are doing the war on terror thing and we can't protest it at all. As if they don't already have enough support from us (one thing 1stdeadeye and I agree on is the insane amount of foriegn aid we give to Israel which is not even a third world country). The message needs to be sent to Israel that the rules we set for ourselves are different than the rules that we set for them. With all the aid we give them they are supposed to be our lap dog which sits when we say sit not the other way around!

We actually don't just condone everything Israel does in the war on terror. One of the big crtisicms that conservatives levy on Bush is that he codemns Israel for taking the war to the terrorists when he himself does the same thing.

Now, he isn't forcibly stopping Israel from doing it, but he has issued several strong condemnations of the military campgain and has put some considerable pressure on Sharon, which has met with limited success.

[Army]

Palestine was NOT...NOT...NOT a country. Palestine was, and is, a TERRITORY. Like the USA is a territory surrounding Utah. Former British rule is unimportant to this discussion. Answer me this: There is MORE Palestinian claimed land in Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon, than all of Israel. So, why isn't the PLO attacking those countries for their land? I'll tell you why, so you don't have to make up something silly.....it's not about the land, it's about the destruction of the Israeli state. That's been the often stated goal of the PLO since its inception in the late '60s.

Israel only expanded "outside their country" when they were deliberatly attacked by forces bent on killing each and every Jew. By all standards of international law, they are entitled to those lands they conquered during their heroic defense. BTW, who do you think we signed those treaties with for our new lands? Yep, Spain and Japan...after we defeated them in war! (BTW, We don't have control over the Phillipines any more, not since WWII.)

DU is about as dangerous as your glow-in-the-dark wristwatch. Get the facts first, before you rely on tainted, one sided reporting. You are getting 10 times the radiation reading this on your monitor, than you would receive from a day with DU munitions.

Who says we aren't going to attack NKorea, or China, or Lichtenstein for that matter? Thanks to Klinton though, NKorea has the means to make and deliver nukes to the world. Thanks to Klinton, China just put a man in space. Do you really think communist China has peaceful plans for their space station? I don't. Red China has never shown itself to be working for world peace, why would this change that?

BAH, this has run it's course. That is all I will comment on this thread.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aaron_mag
Have you ever heard of overkill? Launching missiles at a runaway car and of course bystanders are going to get killed. I'm not saying that the innocent Israelis deserve to die (they don't) but I ask you how have the militant response lessened the terrorist attacks? The answer is they haven't. The stronger they push and the more they try to strong arm the more frequent the attacks get.

Oh, but Israel's methods do work. Whenever they occupy the terrorist hot beds the terrorism dries up to a near stand still.

And the missile attacks are stupid. They never succeed and they always kill the wrong person.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by -Carnifex-
They aren't urban myths and legends; I've even seen reports on the news.

So show them to us

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
Terrorism is a valid form of warfare, that is a FACT. Please study up on this before even trying to debate this with me.

Terrorism is not a form of warfare, as no military objective is assomplished. Terrorism is a psychological tactic used against a populace to instill fear. But it's very defintion it is not a tactic for war, but for killing non-combatants. If you want to tell me that terrorism is ok then Israel is allowed to shoot missiles at whatever it wants to.

They are treated like dogs. Turn off your blinders and take a look at how they are treated, just for being a Palestinian.

But it isn't the Israelis that cause the greatest suffering. It is Arafat who takes aid money and channels it into weapons. It is Jordan, who kicked the Palastinians out in the first place. It is the condition that is inflicted upon them by the unending conflict that the terrorists carryt foward with every day.

Tear Gas can become deadly, a nerve agent can become deadly (in fact it killed like 4 people if I am not mistaking).

It killed a lot more then 4. But that was not the intention. However, I would not mind seeing some kind of punishment for that.

DU is very deadly.

Yeah, it's supposed to be. But, all the conventions you claim it violates are very open ended and non specific. Any weapon of any kind can be argued to violate those conventions, and as such it is difficult to take them seriosly.


Explain to me how the Israelis can say they are not deliberately targeting civilians if they drop a bomb on an apartment building, if the open machine gun fire into a crowd. If they shoot missiles into apartment buildings. If they mow down apartments with their tanks. If they are forcing innocent Palestinians to leave in a camp that cockroaches would hate to live, and forcing them to go through in humane checkpoints just to go to work.

Because in every one of those instances they are fighting a war against an enemy that hides among the population. And why not use checkpoints? All the people that try to kill Israelis come from those areas. It would be stupid to not check the people that come from there for bombs.

Sounds like you have an anger problem, if you desperately want me to come to AO SC.

For the record, all I want from life is for you to NOT be there.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Terrorism is simply just another choice a side can take in a battle, if it is the best option you have.

No it isn't. Terrorism is a tactic used against the people that aren't fighting they war. The target is the defenseless.

Now, suicide attacks against military establishments have some inkling as a legitimate war tactic. Not against malls and discos.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
So a Palestinian only explodes himself by a male over the age of 18 who has hid himself inside a group of innocents. I mean using your logic; you would have to agree to that.

If the male could be classified as a combants (male or otherwise) I could see an arguement for it being legitimate. I don't know that I'd agree with it, but I'd see the arguement.

The Israelis do target civilians if you think the Palestinians target civilians.

No, the Israelis target combatants in civilian dresss (that are, in most instances, armed) in civillian areas. They do not target civillians

No but I see them flying their million dollar airplanes dropping 100,000 dollar bombs on top of apartment complexes to kill one terrorist guy, and forgetting the 200 or so others in the building (of which I think 12 died). I see them shooting their 100,000 dollar missiles into apartment complexes to get one guy and forgetting the others that live there. Look at the number of innocent Palestinians killed compared to the number of Israelis killed, the Palestinians far out weigh the Israelis.

Well, not for nothing, but what should the Israelis do? Surrond the building with troops and open fire on it, taking casaulties themselves and inflicting them? Urban ground warfare generates more casaulties then any other kind of fighting. The aerial bombings probably save lives compared to the alternative.

Why does the UN not recognize it, for it is controlled by western style huge armies whose major down fall is to go against a terrorist force. The first thing you do when you go into a battle is to degrade the enemy in the eyes of your public.

The terrorists that circumvent the military targets to kill civillians are not employing a war tactic, but a fear tactic against non combatants. It is not a legtimate war fighting tactic.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
1DE. What is it about terrorism that makes you think it is not a standard matter of warfare?

How many Palestinians fly jets and drop bombs on the houses of Israeli children. NONE

How many Palestinians shoot missiles into the homes of innocent Israelis.

[jdev]

you know.. I would come back and post to this topic.. but since collegeboy has joined the fun, its no fun for even me to post.

so, I am hereby instating the "move collegeboy to the middle east fund" as he seems to be so simpathetic to thier causes and whatnot.

ill be contacting anmesty international and any other groups I think may donate to the cause and help CB find his way to his true calling/home.

[-Carnifex-]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Albinonewt

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
They aren't urban myths and legends; I've even seen reports on the news.

So show them to us

I mentioned before that I couldn't recall which news organization. Not to mention I don't get nearly as heated as you guys (or at all). So it isn't worth my time. If you really want try google.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
I mentioned before that I couldn't recall which news organization. Not to mention I don't get nearly as heated as you guys (or at all). So it isn't worth my time. If you really want try google.

So as usual you chime in with a nice catch phrase but have absolutly nothing to say once you're asked to elaborate.

Although, one incident you might be thinking of happened in Iraq a few months ago. Some terrorists used a pregnant woman as bait to lure some GI's closer to a car bomb.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by joey d
so, I am hereby instating the "move collegeboy to the middle east fund" as he seems to be so simpathetic to thier causes and whatnot.

ill be contacting anmesty international and any other groups I think may donate to the cause and help CB find his way to his true calling/home.

Where do I send my donation!

Maybe CB can roll back home with his Palestinian friends. He can even stand in front if Israeli bulldozers and ask them not to demolish terrorists homes!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
If these DU weapons are so harmless, then why the growing amounts of a posining of the body to the people who it is fired near but never hit. Why the growing signs of esposure to nuclear materials to those around it. The military might due all it can to convince the world that these weapons are harmless and safe (well as safe as a weapon can be), but the facts speak against it.

Proof please? As Army ACTUALLY works with DU I will take his word over yours. DU is not used because of any radioactivity. It is used because of it's incredible density. Density rivaled only by your thick skull!

Palestine was a country, it was called Palestine when the British ran it, it was called Palestine before that.

Territory, not country! Israel was a country long before!

The difference between the US acquisition of Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Philippians (and Florida for that matter), is that they gained the land through a foreign country giving to them in a treaty. That is not the same with Israel and their expansion outside of their boarders. The occupied the land after a war and have yet to move from that, that is clearly against UN resolutions.

Spoils of war! Like France taking Alsace-lorraie from Germany after WWI, like the US taking New Mexico, et al from Mexico, Like England taking Canada from France.......

If you are out to kill those responsible for 911, when are you going to start? If you are out to kill those who are evil in this world, what definition are you going to use for evil. What is evil, and why not take out N. Korea (that is right, because you can not)

We will get them all in due time!

1DE. What is it about terrorism that makes you think it is not a standard matter of warfare?

Because it is a criminal act! Even the Palestinian Authority has condemned the suicide bombings as such. Even they realize what it is. They don't stop it, but they condem it!

How many Palestinians fly jets and drop bombs on the houses of Israeli children. NONE

How many Palestinians shoot missiles into the homes of innocent Israelis.

They are not targeting innocents. The innocents are collateral damage.

The terrorists are hiding amoung the innocents. They have brought the conflict into the Palestinian neighborhoods!

Man that little Palestinian girlfriend of yours must really be good in the sack to have turned your head so far around! Have you ever shared these views with your Veteran Father? Does he agree that the Israelis are at fault and the Palestinians are justified in their terrorist strikes?