Womd

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
I never claimed the high gorund for either! You can not compare suicide bombers to battlefield casualties. Yes innocents are hurt in combat, but the difference is that the Israelis might hurt bystanders, they did not target them!!!!!

Have you ever heard of overkill? Launching missiles at a runaway car and of course bystanders are going to get killed. I'm not saying that the innocent Israelis deserve to die (they don't) but I ask you how have the militant response lessened the terrorist attacks? The answer is they haven't. The stronger they push and the more they try to strong arm the more frequent the attacks get.

Both sides are going to have to make some concessions if they are ever going to have peace. How far do you have to push someone when they start not caring if they live or die anymore? Please don't start in with "its their culture. They are into Jihad and salvation through sacrificing themselves" because it is a bunch of BS. I am not agreeing with their tactics at all but the fact that there is a seemingly never ending supply of people willing to go to that extreme just tells you that something is fundamentally wrong with the system over there. It is broke and the militant responses are making it worse. Time to try something new.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Israel can keep everything but the West Bank and Gaza. They have every right to annex what they conquered, or should the US give Texas back to Mexico?

I like your attitude. Why don't we stop giving aid to Israel and supplying them with weapons. Lets see how long they last with their neighbors.

I'm being sarcastic of course. I have no desire to see the Israelis slaughtered. The fact is, however, they do get aid from us and their borders are kept safe by our tax money. They can play the role of right of conquest when they can grow up and can stand on their own but while they are under our roof we have a right to say what is their "right" and what is not.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-
I totally agree. I wasn't trying to get into a debate with you by the way.

Still, I've seen reports (none that I could find, mind you) of Israeli soldiers murdering civies at checkpoints.

Urban myth, legend, rumor....Take your pick!

In one case a relative of my mom's friend witnessed a pregant women's way to the hospital barred.

Again rumors!

I say we just nuke everyone.

Let me guess...You want God to sort them out?

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


I like your attitude. Why don't we stop giving aid to Israel and supplying them with weapons. Lets see how long they last with their neighbors.

Fine, but then we would have to with hold aid to our number to recepient as well. Israel receives the most foreign aid our country gives. Number 2 is Eygpt. So if we cut off the Israeli aid, they still can manufacture their own weaponry. Also Israel will still have a stronger armed forces then their neighbors. But all wishfull thinking! The Pro-Israel,Egypt,Foreign Aid lobbies would never let us cut them off!

I'm being sarcastic of course. I have no desire to see the Israelis slaughtered. The fact is, however, they do get aid from us and their borders are kept safe by our tax money. They can play the role of right of conquest when they can grow up and can stand on their own but while they are under our roof we have a right to say what is their "right" and what is not.

I would take that bet. The Israeli Army is by far superior to that of all the nations surrounding them! Plus Israel has the ultimate WoMD!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


Have you ever heard of overkill? Launching missiles at a runaway car and of course bystanders are going to get killed. I'm not saying that the innocent Israelis deserve to die (they don't) but I ask you how have the militant response lessened the terrorist attacks? The answer is they haven't. The stronger they push and the more they try to strong arm the more frequent the attacks get.

Again, they are not targeting bystanders. It is the Palestinian Terrorists who choose to hide amoungst the innocent Paletinian population. They are bringing the terror to their own people as well as murdering innocent Israeli civilians.

To be honest, if all of the suicide bombers were attacing military targets, I would not have as much of a problem with it. They are however attacing civilians.

Both sides are going to have to make some concessions if they are ever going to have peace. How far do you have to push someone when they start not caring if they live or die anymore? Please don't start in with "its their culture. They are into Jihad and salvation through sacrificing themselves" because it is a bunch of BS. I am not agreeing with their tactics at all but the fact that there is a seemingly never ending supply of people willing to go to that extreme just tells you that something is fundamentally wrong with the system over there. It is broke and the militant responses are making it worse. Time to try something new.

See the problem here is that IJ, Al Asqua and Hamas used the last truce period to re-arm and not to search for alternatives. The Israelis must keep hitting back or face losing as the Palestinians will not stop until their own people force them to stop!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by aaron_mag
I would take that bet. The Israeli Army is by far superior to that of all the nations surrounding them! Plus Israel has the ultimate WoMD!

And why is that? Please do not tell me that they are not propped up by us! They don't even have oil. They get the best fighting equipment from us and surprise surprise they have an awesome army.

Once again I will say that the rules that apply to them DO NOT apply to us. When we say jump they should jump.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
See the problem here is that IJ, Al Asqua and Hamas used the last truce period to re-arm and not to search for alternatives. The Israelis must keep hitting back or face losing as the Palestinians will not stop until their own people force them to stop!

I disagree. What did they have to do to re-arm? It is not like they are fighting a high tech campaign! Sheesh. I believe that these organizations were using the cease fire to gauge the Palestinians feelings on the peace talks. At the beginning when things looked promising they didn't want the blame placed on them by the Palestinian people as the source of the lost chance for peace. When the talks stalled and their popular base was once more secure they felt safe to resume their Jihad. I think we will both agree that without population support organizes like Hamas cannot exist.

EDIT: Increased military attacks/presence also allowed them to regain popular support.

I think if the Israelis had made more initial concessions there would have been a chance for peace and I don't believe that they had much to risk. It is not like they couldn't retake everything they conceded had the terrorist attacks restarted. Then they could claim they gave it an honest shot and it was organizations like Hamas that screwed over everything.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


And why is that? Please do not tell me that they are not propped up by us! They don't even have oil. They get the best fighting equipment from us and surprise surprise they have an awesome army.

We give lots of countries weapons and military aid!

Once again I will say that the rules that apply to them DO NOT apply to us. When we say jump they should jump.

No, they should say how high sir!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag


I disagree. What did they have to do to re-arm? It is not like they are fighting a high tech campaign! Sheesh. I believe that these organizations were using the cease fire to gauge the Palestinians feelings on the peace talks. At the beginning when things looked promising they didn't want the blame placed on them by the Palestinian people as the source of the lost chance for peace. When the talks stalled and their popular base was once more secure they felt safe to resume their Jihad. I think we will both agree that without population support organizes like Hamas cannot exist.

Uhm let's see. Arms smuggling tunnels into Egypt. New bomb making "factories". They were arming for peace maybe?

As for popular support, they also survuve by terror. Ever see what happens to a Palestinian accused of working for the Israeli side? Not pretty!


I think if the Israelis had made more initial concessions there would have been a chance for peace and I don't believe that they had much to risk. It is not like they couldn't retake everything they conceded had the terrorist attacks restarted. Then they could claim they gave it an honest shot and it was organizations like Hamas that screwed over everything.

What more could they concede? They pulled out of occupied areas. They ceased attacks. They opened borders. They eased travel restrictions. What happened? The first day of the truce, Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli military checkpoint! BOTH sides have to move or neither will!

[Collegeboy]

http://www.sundayherald.com/32522

"According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts."

You said gas is a WoMD.

It says so in the Bible.

My paragraph was all facts, maybe a little touch of bias, but facts none the less. The UN past a resolution that said that any land acquired in a war is not legal.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
http://www.sundayherald.com/32522

"According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts."

A subcommission, not the General Assembly or security council came to this conclusion. Therefore it is irrelavent!


You said gas is a WoMD.

Deadly gases!

It says so in the Bible.


So it does not say that in any Israeli laws or statement.

My paragraph was all facts, maybe a little touch of bias, but facts none the less. The UN past a resolution that said that any land acquired in a war is not legal.

Facts my butt!

"They are treated like dogs"
You said terrorism is a valid form of warfare.

These are opinions bub, not facts!

PLEASE COME TO AO SC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by -Carnifex-
I totally agree. I wasn't trying to get into a debate with you by the way.

Still, I've seen reports (none that I could find, mind you) of Israeli soldiers murdering civies at checkpoints.

Urban myth, legend, rumor....Take your pick!

In one case a relative of my mom's friend witnessed a pregant women's way to the hospital barred.

Again rumors!

I say we just nuke everyone.

Let me guess...You want God to sort them out?

They aren't urban myths and legends; I've even seen reports on the news.

That was a joke about the nukes, hence the .

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by Collegeboy
http://www.sundayherald.com/32522

"According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing 'poison or poisoned weapons' and 'arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering'. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts."

A subcommission, not the General Assembly or security council came to this conclusion. Therefore it is irrelavent!


You said gas is a WoMD.

Deadly gases!

It says so in the Bible.


So it does not say that in any Israeli laws or statement.

My paragraph was all facts, maybe a little touch of bias, but facts none the less. The UN past a resolution that said that any land acquired in a war is not legal.

Facts my butt!

"They are treated like dogs"
You said terrorism is a valid form of warfare.

These are opinions bub, not facts!

PLEASE COME TO AO SC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terrorism is a valid form of warfare, that is a FACT. Please study up on this before even trying to debate this with me.

They are treated like dogs. Turn off your blinders and take a look at how they are treated, just for being a Palestinian.

Tear Gas can become deadly, a nerve agent can become deadly (in fact it killed like 4 people if I am not mistaking).

DU is very deadly.

So according to you all the above are WoMD.

Explain to me how the Israelis can say they are not deliberately targeting civilians if they drop a bomb on an apartment building, if the open machine gun fire into a crowd. If they shoot missiles into apartment buildings. If they mow down apartments with their tanks. If they are forcing innocent Palestinians to leave in a camp that cockroaches would hate to live, and forcing them to go through in humane checkpoints just to go to work.

Sounds like you have an anger problem, if you desperately want me to come to AO SC.

[aaron_mag]

CB-

Why do you go off the deep end? Terrorism is a VALID form of warfare? If you mean it exists then that cannot be argued. Most people would not NOT, however, call it warfare. That is why we have a separate name for it and call it TERRORISM.

I agree with you that Israel is NOT guiltless (as can be seen by my posts) but putting the Palestinians on some pedestal of suffering freedom fighters is being very blind.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
CB-

Why do you go off the deep end? Terrorism is a VALID form of warfare? If you mean it exists then that cannot be argued. Most people would not NOT, however, call it warfare. That is why we have a separate name for it and call it TERRORISM.

I agree with you that Israel is NOT guiltless (as can be seen by my posts) but putting the Palestinians on some pedestal of suffering freedom fighters is being very blind.

It is not off in the deep end. Since the dawn of time, terrorism has always existed. Warfare is a term that is used to describe how one side defends or attacks or uses force against another side. In a war your side chooses the best warfare that they can with their available resources. Russia in WWII, had main power so they could afford to take the brunt of the German Army, and to use mass troops and mass battles as victories. The US could not afford it, that is why they chose to allow Russia to take Berlin (along with the rivers in the way and all sort of stuff). Terrorism is simply just another choice a side can take in a battle, if it is the best option you have.