Womd

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But I got a warning for nothing, the other guy didn't get one, Miscue didn't get one. Just the typical double standard.

Miscue, you are hereby warned to refrain from commentary that trivializes anyone's deaths... alive or dead.

Yes sir!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Miscue


Miscue, you are hereby warned to refrain from commentary that trivializes anyone's deaths... alive or dead.

Yes sir!

Wahoo, to bad it is just a joke.

And no my purpose is not to get anyone a warning, for I feel it is stupid to hand out warnings for you disagree with what someone says. My purpose is to show the difference in treatment of people in these threads. I post something and get a warning, two other post the same thing and get nothing.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Wahoo, to bad it is just a joke.

No, I slapped my wrist. For real. I didn't slap yours, so I was dually punished.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
Again we fall into the idea of you all not reading my words carefully. I am against what the Palestinians are doing; I am against what the Israelis are doing. All I am doing is providing the other side of the story, to show you all the ironicness the double sidedness of your complete support of Israel.

There is no double sidedness of my arguement CB. I fully support the targeting of military assets (uniformed soldiers, military bases, convoys, etc). I fully support the targeting of unlawful combatants (terrorists) wherever they may be, since they have no formal military base that they can be targeted at. I do not support the intentional targeting of civillians. At present I believe only one side guilty of that, the terrorists.

A Israeli shoots a missile or drops a bomb on an apartment building, or opens fire into a mob of Palestinians and it is justified because there is a terrorist in them.

Yes. Yes it is. Unless you would like to show me the terrorist's military base that they can be targeted at without risk to the civillian populace. It is not Israel's fault that the terrorists hide amound the populace. They can't control how their enemy fights.

But a Palestinian blows himself up in a group of people to get a soldier, and it is not justified.

Keep telling yourself that's what they're doing. YOu're so dishonest its beginning to get under my skin. Is that what they were doing last year when 2 gunmen open fired on 2 children, with no adults present at all?

A Palestinian is supposedly (a lie) taught from the beginning to hate the Jewish and to kill everyone they see, yet an Israeli is taught from the beginning to love the Palestinians and to pray for peace.

Have you read the textbooks?

I have. They say it all.

Albinonewt.

The statement about God is to the comment that the Palestinians started the conflict.

In modern terms they have started the conflict. In modern terms it is they who attack the Israelis who really don't want anything more then to just exist.

The Israelis was not giving back all the land, just certain parts of it.

Yeah, it's called compromise. Or havne't you heard of it?

And the Palestinians did not attack it, some terrorist groups did. Big difference.

No, it isn't. Where do the terrorists come from? From the Palestinian populace (then one trained to hate Israel). Who supplies the terrorists? The populace at large and the PLO. Who harbors the terrorists knowlingly? Large segments of the populace and the PLO.

As long as Israel is in the land, and is not willing to give it all back, these groups will be able to use Israel as the great devil, and garner "support" for themselves.

In other words. These groups will never be satisified no matter what and will always continue to brutally murder and kill Israelis so Israel might as well stop negotiating with them and just slaughter them all. Ok CB, I admit you're a little more bloodthirsy then I am, but I see your point. I would rather the Palestinians learn to negotiate and compromise and deal with what they can get in an independently brokerd peace, but wiping them out could work too.

I didn't offend the board either, or if you was offended by my including others in my memorial post, you might not want to post on boards for you have a problem. What about my post that supposedly offended people but didn't offend the same people when posted by someone else?

Care to name for me the people that spoke in support of your comments? BEcause I can think of a couple of dozen that were offended.

When asked not to post on a subject I did not post (there was a thread that asked me not to post, and guess what, I DID NOT), The thread asked where we was, and people started posting threads memorializing those who died. I simple said that I will add in all those who die everyday in with my memorial. That is all, should not have offended anyone. But I got a warning for nothing, the other guy didn't get one, Miscue didn't get one. Just the typical double standard.

No, in that post we asked you to delete your post and I even offered to debate the subject with you in another thread. You instead felt compelled to leave your post, and argue with us that it was your right. All we wanted was to not discuss it in a memorial thread, but you refused.

[Collegeboy]

No, these terrorist groups can not be dealt with. But Palestinians can. These terrorist groups want the destruction of Israel, but Palestinians in general do not. You have to first get Israel to move out of the occupied land (ALL OF IT, there is no compromise over that which can not be compromised), and to promise that there will be no retaliation for attacks done to them and the UN will take up the responsibility for retaliation. Once the movement takes place, the Palestinians get one year from that date, which if no terror attacks take place, they gain their country. For every terror attack that takes place they get an extra six months added to their time for statehood, and a UN action against them. You have to turn this away from a Jewish versus Muslim action. You have to turn this into a Muslim vs Muslim action. You have to get the Palestinians to see these terror groups as greater evil then Israel. Until then, NOTHING will happen to change that area.

It doesn't matter if Israel only goes after the terrorist and kills innocents along the way, every time they kill a little boy or a little girl, 2 more rise up in their place. But their deaths are justified for they are Palestinians, they are Muslim. But the deaths of 2 Israelis are not for they are Jewish and our long lost allies. Talk about great irony. Both deaths should be considered equal, and both deaths should be considered wrong, and prevented.

I feel that you have a deep down hatred for the Palestinians that is preventing you from distinguishing between the terrorist group and the innocent populace. Would you also say that every Muslim is a terrorist, for they in one shape or form had some support to do with a terrorist attack. In that matter, would you say that everyone in the world is a terrorist for we all in one shape or form support something that supports something that supports something that has to do with terrorism?

As to the argument on my post.

I am positive if you read back over it, you will see how your statement is false. Until you read back over it, it is pointless to discuss this with you.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
No, these terrorist groups can not be dealt with.

Of course they can be dealt with. They can be arrested, dismanteled, or killed. But the PLO will never do it because they support the terrorists.

But Palestinians can.

There isn't a fundamental difference between the terrorists and people that harbor them. For the truly innocent Palestinians I am sorry. However, all it takes for it to end is cooperation in shutting down terror.

These terrorist groups want the destruction of Israel, but Palestinians in general do not.

Palestinians in general do want the destruction of Israel. It really isn't their fault in a lot of ways, it's what they've been taught from birth.

You have to first get Israel to move out of the occupied land (ALL OF IT, there is no compromise over that which can not be compromised)

Yes, their has to be compromise. Remember, the Israelis defeated all armies that came to them and took that land in a war of aggression. You don't get it back simply because you're unhappy you lost. The Palestinians are lucky the Israelis are willing to give any of it back. If they can't compromise then they don't want peace. And, Israel WAS IN THE PROCESS OF PULLING OUT when the attacks resumed. How many times does it have to be said? You don't even comment about it, you just move past the facts that your blind obedience to the Palestinian cause doesn't have a retort for.

and to promise that there will be no retaliation for attacks done to them and the UN will take up the responsibility for retaliation.

That will never happen. The UN cannot be trusted to do that, and anyone that says otherwise is fooling themselves. Even if one has a favorable opinion of the UN (which I obviously don't) you cannot possibly expect an organization that is split on the issue to take decisive action. They simply aren't prepared to do it. Now, if they were to allow the US to do it, that would be different. However, the Palestinians would never agree to it (and frankly the US might not be willing to do it)

Once the movement takes place, the Palestinians get one year from that date, which if no terror attacks take place, they gain their country. For every terror attack that takes place they get an extra six months added to their time for statehood, and a UN action against them.

That's completely retarded. There aren't even words to describe how stupid that is.

You have to turn this away from a Jewish versus Muslim action. You have to turn this into a Muslim vs Muslim action. You have to get the Palestinians to see these terror groups as greater evil then Israel. Until then, NOTHING will happen to change that area.

Wishful thinking and it will never happen. It IS a Jewish vs Muslim "thing". That's what the other Muslim states want (or the rare Middle Eastern state that is more neutral, like Turkey). The Middle Eastern Mulsim world is against Israel, and they will simply never take Israel's side in any way, no matter how subtle. These people fund the terrorists, they'll simply not help dismantle them.

Here's what really needs to happen.

1) Israel needs to immediatly withdraw from all territory it is required to leave as per the Roadmap to peace.

2) Israel needs to immediatly recognize a Palestinian State.

3) Israel needs to publically state that any and all attacks against the State of Israel will be traced back to their State of origin, and the State will be given "x" days to turn over those responsible for the attack. Should that not happen within the specified time frame there will be a significant military retalliation.

And that's it. That's all that needs to be done. I think that Israel, being the sole democracy in the Middle East and argueably the most developed (dare I say civilized) state in the region needs to suck it up and do what is asked of them. And then respond to all attacks against their nation by other nations (or those they harbor) with significant armed force. No more instant minor retalliations. No more accupying territory to shut down tunnels. From now on if you attack us you have until Thursday to hand over the guys that planned and executed the attacks. If you don't we level something, maybe mutiple somethings. And I'm not talking about an apartment building or house that a bomb maker may be in. We level something big and we make life very difficult for you.

That's what they should do.

It doesn't matter if Israel only goes after the terrorist and kills innocents along the way, every time they kill a little boy or a little girl, 2 more rise up in their place.

Um, perhaps because the average Palestinian is brought up to hate Israel?

But their deaths are justified for they are Palestinians, they are Muslim.

Their deaths are (sort of) justified because they harbor terrorists. If they didn't, there wouldn't be an attack there.

But the deaths of 2 Israelis are not for they are Jewish and our long lost allies.

No, because they aren't harboring terrorists and because the terrorists intentionally target civillians. The Israelis don't. The Israeli military bases are clearly marked and designated and anyone wishing to make a war time strike knows where to go. Any civillian killed in a military base I would say is fair game. Any civillian killed in a mall is not.

Talk about great irony. Both deaths should be considered equal, and both deaths should be considered wrong, and prevented.

No no no no NO.

I HATE this moral equivilance crap. It really gets me irritated. Here's a great one from Reuters:

But the tit-for-tat bloodshed continues. Shortly after [senior representatives of the "Quartet"] issued their appeal [to implement the road map], a Palestinian gunman shot dead an Israeli settler and a baby at a Jewish settlement in the West Bank before he was shot dead himself. ("Palestinians Mark Anniversary with Vow to Fight On," September 29, 2003)

The gunmen attacked a civillian and a baby, on purpose and deliberatly. An IDF soldier then shot dead the gunman. The two are not the same. That gunman deserved to die for his crime, and the civillian and baby did not. There is no equivilance between the two.

It can be argued that there is more of an equivilance between an Israeli civillian and a Palestinian civillian. And while the Palestinian civillian doesn't deserve to die simply for being Palestinian (the way they feel about the Israelis) he is also not immune to the choices he makes, such as to harbor a terrorist.



I feel that you have a deep down hatred for the Palestinians that is preventing you from distinguishing between the terrorist group and the innocent populace.

I'm certainly not fond of the population that danced in the streets when the Columbia exploded (killing a jew) and when the towers fell on 9/11. I admit that is if difficult to muster sympathey for a people that would celebrate such tragedies. However, I do not hate them, and I don't wish them death. I wish them a new leader, and a cessation to the terrorist activities that condemn their existance.

Would you also say that every Muslim is a terrorist, for they in one shape or form had some support to do with a terrorist attack.

No, but I would say that anyone that harbors a terrorist, supports a terrorist (and I mean in a real fashion, not something more or less uncontrollable - like investing a company that is secretly a front of something like that), or is a terrorist deserves to be punished accordingly for their crime. It is not enough to just kill those that would bomb. Terrorism needs to be combatted at every level.

In that matter, would you say that everyone in the world is a terrorist for we all in one shape or form support something that supports something that supports something that has to do with terrorism?

No, that's just stupid. More of your moral equivilance nonsense.

I am positive if you read back over it, you will see how your statement is false. Until you read back over it, it is pointless to discuss this with you.

I would if I could. I looked for it when you first made your threat about your PM and I couldn't find it. I would love it if a mod could provide a link so I could go over it again.

[Collegeboy]

How can you argue against me if you do not know what I am arguing. You have said that my undying support of the Palestinians have lead to my turning a blind eye to the perils of the Israelis. If you would read, probably on this page, you will find out that I do not think the Palestinians are right in what they do; I do not think the Israelis are right in what they do. I think both sides are wrong, and both sides need to stop what they are doing. Israel needs to immediately withdraw from the illegally occupied land, all of it, for that is the law, and they are not exempt from the law.

What makes you think that the Palestinians harbor terrorist. Take for example, last year a student in my apartment building let one of his friends stay a week in his apartment. It turned out that friend had committed some crime and was on the run from the cops. Now should I, who never knew anything about it, be now afraid of a bomb being dropped on top of my head, for something that I have no control over. Should I have to worry about a missile being fired into my window for something I didn't know about. If I am walking down a street and a murder is ahead of me in line for a cup of coffee, should I have to worry about being shot at by the cops, for I shouldn't be near someone I didn't know was a murderer. You make it seem like every Palestinian is a harbor of terrorism, and knows everything about it, knows every single one, and is completely responsible for everything that goes on in their camps. I am sorry but that is just wrong.

You use the word terrorist to describe the actions of the Palestinians. But as long as we are being honest, couldn't the actions of the IDF be considered terrorist. For as long as they went after the terrorist with minimal force, that would be fine. But we know that that is not the case. They are trying to send a message to the Palestinian populace; they are trying to terrorize the Palestinian populace into giving into their demands, much to the same that the Palestinian terrorists are doing.

That is not what they have been taught since they were children.

It is the only way in which anything will be done. Any retaliation by Israel will end the process. You have to have someone the Palestinians trust to do the retaliation.

No the average Palestinian is not. The terrorist are made that way, because of the actions of Israel. How would you feel if your sister was killed while she was playing in her play pin, after an Israeli bomb was dropped on your apartment building, or missiles shot into your building, or being hit with bullets on the street? The same can be said for Israeli children.

You should know that the Palestinians dancing in the street on 911 was a complete farce. It was old B role that was shown to suggest their celebration. Numerous people have come forward, who was in Palestine on that date, on the ONE street is supposedly happened on, and they all said that nothing like that happened. Even if it did happen, it was a small group, in a small area, not to be confused with all Palestinians celebrating.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
How can you argue against me if you do not know what I am arguing.

That's a good point. It's hard to argue with someone when they don't even know what they are arguing.

You have said that my undying support of the Palestinians have lead to my turning a blind eye to the perils of the Israelis. If you would read, probably on this page, you will find out that I do not think the Palestinians are right in what they do; I do not think the Israelis are right in what they do. I think both sides are wrong, and both sides need to stop what they are doing. Israel needs to immediately withdraw from the illegally occupied land, all of it, for that is the law, and they are not exempt from the law.

Agreed, the violence needs to stop on both sides... that's what this whole dilemma is all about.

What makes you think that the Palestinians harbor terrorist. Take for example, last year a student in my apartment building let one of his friends stay a week in his apartment. It turned out that friend had committed some crime and was on the run from the cops. Now should I, who never knew anything about it, be now afraid of a bomb being dropped on top of my head, for something that I have no control over. Should I have to worry about a missile being fired into my window for something I didn't know about. If I am walking down a street and a murder is ahead of me in line for a cup of coffee, should I have to worry about being shot at by the cops, for I shouldn't be near someone I didn't know was a murderer.

Absolutely not, that would be ridiculous. But if you did so purposely, that's a different matter. It's silly to think that all... or maybe even a majority of people who harbor terrorists do so knowingly, that's probably a hobby you don't want people you live with to know about. How can we know the answer to this anyway? Perhaps a survey eh?

You make it seem like every Palestinian is a harbor of terrorism, and knows everything about it, knows every single one, and is completely responsible for everything that goes on in their camps. I am sorry but that is just wrong.

Of course it's wrong, this is intuitively obvious and we are all aware of this.

No the average Palestinian is not. The terrorist are made that way, because of the actions of Israel. How would you feel if your sister was killed while she was playing in her play pin, after an Israeli bomb was dropped on your apartment building, or missiles shot into your building, or being hit with bullets on the street? The same can be said for Israeli children.

I'd be pissed if someone close to me was killed. However, there is NO justification for terrorism. If your sister gets killed by terrorism or whatever, then that does not give you the right to kill more innocent people through terrorist acts.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I do not think the Palestinians are right in what they do; I do not think the Israelis are right in what they do. I think both sides are wrong, and both sides need to stop what they are doing. .

This is what a lot of us have been saying between your inane ramblings!

Both sides need to give.

I will tell you this. You can only bend over backwards to accomodate someone so far before you are lying flat on your back being tred upon!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


This is what a lot of us have been saying between your inane ramblings!

Both sides need to give.

I will tell you this. You can only bend over backwards to accomodate someone so far before you are lying flat on your back being tred upon!

Inane.

From the begining you and others have known my view on these, on this thread I have said it twice, yet just now you get it. Have you not been reading before.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
How can you argue against me if you do not know what I am arguing. You have said that my undying support of the Palestinians have lead to my turning a blind eye to the perils of the Israelis.

You condone the terrorists actions, pretend it's a way of weeding out soldiers, and then complain that Israel HAS to make the first move by abandoning land even the Road Map (accepted by the Palestinians) doesn't require them to give up. And only then should the Palestnians stop bombing.

If you would read, probably on this page, you will find out that I do not think the Palestinians are right in what they do;

No, you think it is a legitimate tactic that you fail to condemn.

I do not think the Israelis are right in what they do.

That much is clear

I think both sides are wrong, and both sides need to stop what they are doing.

Right CB. You condemn Israel's every action, deny the state of affairs in Palestine, and then claim to be impartial. It's easy to see what side you've taken and to see you through your fake middle of the road lines. In this case, as in most we debate, I am honest as to where I stand and you once again claim to be what you are not.

Israel needs to immediately withdraw from the illegally occupied land, all of it, for that is the law, and they are not exempt from the law.

Israel should withdraw form the lands they said the would in the Road Map. They are not currently obligated to since their are specific conditions to do so, but I think they should. But they have ZERO obligation to give up lands that are not covered by that peace plan. If the defeated nations have a problem with that they can always launch another unsuccessful war of agression.


What makes you think that the Palestinians harbor terrorist.

Besides the fact that they do, not much else.

Take for example, last year a student in my apartment building let one of his friends stay a week in his apartment.

Wsa his apartment in a warzone where there are constant terrorist attacks coming from and a generations old war being fought?

It turned out that friend had committed some crime and was on the run from the cops. Now should I, who never knew anything about it, be now afraid of a bomb being dropped on top of my head, for something that I have no control over.

A) You don't live in a warzone where that kid's crime probably killed several people and terrorized thousands more
B) The terrorists are not random people that you meet and don't know they are terrorists. The bulk of the Palestinian people know who the terrorists are, the same way people in Chicago knew which buildings in their neighborhood were mafia fronts, the same way that on the street people know where the drugs in their neighborhood are being sold.

Should I have to worry about a missile being fired into my window for something I didn't know about.

Are you now claiming that no Palestinians knows anything about terrorists, and the terrorists just pop out of thin air?

If I am walking down a street and a murder is ahead of me in line for a cup of coffee, should I have to worry about being shot at by the cops, for I shouldn't be near someone I didn't know was a murderer.

Probably, yes. If a cop actually witnesses a murder taking place he will (I hope) try to stop it. God willing he won't kill anyone in the process, but there is a risk. Either help out of get out of the way.

You make it seem like every Palestinian is a harbor of terrorism, and knows everything about it, knows every single one, and is completely responsible for everything that goes on in their camps. I am sorry but that is just wrong.

No I don't. To you that's what it sounds like because that's what you want to hear. Everyone else has a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. When the IDF rolls into your neighborhood and says they want turned over to them "x" individuals involved in terrorism don't pretend for a moment that nobody in the neighborhood knows anything about it. Now, some, if not most, of the citizens will honestly have nothing to do with those people or their activities, but that doesn't mean when the IDF asks for "Bob the psycho murderer" they should refuse to cooperate.


You use the word terrorist to describe the actions of the Palestinians.

Yes, because they are terrorists

But as long as we are being honest,

At least I am.

couldn't the actions of the IDF be considered terrorist. For as long as they went after the terrorist with minimal force, that would be fine.

No, they are not terrorists. They are soldiers attempting to aprehend (in some cases, kill in others) dangereous criminals and murders. In cases of aprehension the IDF asks for the local populace to turn them over, and they always refuse, typically with violence. In that instance there is almost always bloodshed, that should have been avoided. In the case of the IDF trying to kill the terrorists, they have been recently emplying the tactic of firing low yield missiles at a specific target (car or building) to minimize casaulties. That isn't working the way in practive that it appears it would work on paper. I think it's time to try something other then the missile strikes, but it isn't a terrorist action to try to kill these murderers. Remember, that Israel is very specific about who they are going after and ask the PLO to hand over these people on a regular basis and are always rebuffed. It would be a lot simpler if the Palestinians just cooperated with the IDF in handing over these terrorists. If they did that life would go a lot easier on them, but they refuse.

[b[But we know that that is not the case. They are trying to send a message to the Palestinian populace; they are trying to terrorize the Palestinian populace into giving into their demands, much to the same that the Palestinian terrorists are doing.[/b]

The Palestinian terrorists are trying to sow fear and terror in the civillian populace by intentionally killing civillians. The IDF is trying to capture known criminals and murderers and bring them to justice. Or they are trying to kill known terrorists and murderers by using a tactic that on paper should be relativly bloodless but in practice often is not.

That is not what they have been taught since they were children.

]Anti Defamation League

Not the most unboased source in the world. But what do you have to refute it?

It is the only way in which anything will be done. Any retaliation by Israel will end the process. You have to have someone the Palestinians trust to do the retaliation.

Wait a minute?

YOu have to TRUST the person punishing you for murdering people in order to be punished? That is the stupidest thing you've ever said (at least today). If you trust, or worse, like the people punishing you then the punishment is probably no good, which is why you don't mind it in the first place.

Are you kidding me?

No the average Palestinian is not. The terrorist are made that way, because of the actions of Israel. How would you feel if your sister was killed while she was playing in her play pin, after an Israeli bomb was dropped on your apartment building, or missiles shot into your building, or being hit with bullets on the street?

I'd want to know why. And when I found out that it was because some murderers were living in my streets and were allowed to live there despite the constant requests of the Israeli government for them to be handed over I'd wonder what the hell was the matter with my government.

{b]The same can be said for Israeli children.[/b]

The Israeli children are gunned down for being Israeli. Not for any other reason. Remember not too long ago these terrorists stoned to death 2 Israeli children that were playing outside in a cave somewhere. They just murdered the children for being there. There was no reason besides savage barbaric behavior.

You should know that the Palestinians dancing in the street on 911 was a complete farce. It was old B role that was shown to suggest their celebration. Numerous people have come forward, who was in Palestine on that date, on the ONE street is supposedly happened on, and they all said that nothing like that happened. Even if it did happen, it was a small group, in a small area, not to be confused with all Palestinians celebrating.

Yeah, and I said that it wasn't me that crashed my dad's bronco when I was 16. Problem for the Palestinians is they did it, and we all saw it.

Link

Plus, remember one thing. With the exception of Fox News, most media outlets we have in the US are extremely symathetic to the Palestinians and tend to portary them softer then in reality.

[Collegeboy]

First of all if you read, I am showing you the other side. How the Palestinians view it, or the best that I can understand through my protected feelings of the US on my 2,000 dollar laptop. I am not stating my view points, as in most of the debates on this forum.

The one thing I am certain of is the need of Israel to make the first move. For until they I do not see anything happening in that area. Israel is illegally holding that that is putting Palestinians into camps. That is the truth. That means Israel needs to pull out of the land they illegally hold. They have 100% obligation to give up all lands outside of the 1948 treaty. All land outside of that is occupied land and under the UN code it is illegal.

No my apartment is in a city where crime happens. So should I suspect everyone to be a criminal, for it has been happening ever since the dawn of time. That is rather all knowing of you to say that the Palestinians know who the terrorist are. Even if they do, what does that mean? The IDF knows where the terrorist are too, or they wouldn't have a place to drop their bombs, or shot their missiles. Why should a Palestinian family living in their apartment complex fear death just because some criminal is living somewhere in their building. They are not responsible for who lives there, they shouldn't be forced to move just because some guy lives there who has committed a crime. Should Israelis who live in the areas of IDF members be forced to go to jail for they are giving support to a terrorist (again using the definition of it).

You have to trust that the person punishing your people (not you) is doing it fairly and not out of hatred.

To the rest I will answer tomorrow, I have two test I need to study for.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
First of all if you read, I am showing you the other side. How the Palestinians view it, or the best that I can understand through my protected feelings of the US on my 2,000 dollar laptop. I am not stating my view points, as in most of the debates on this forum.

Don't give me that intellectually detached nonsense. You are not objectivly watching the events unfold. You have clearly chosen a side and are for some reason unwilling to admit it.

The one thing I am certain of is the need of Israel to make the first move. For until they I do not see anything happening in that area.

Israel has already made the first move. It has made several first moves over the past decade under two different Prime Ministers. Israel had most recently begun dismanteling settlements and pulling back. The Palestinians didn't care and didn't honor their obligations and conitnued the violence. Israel honored the ceasefire despite being attacked several times before finally retaliating.

Israel is illegally holding that that is putting Palestinians into camps.

You keep talking about the illegal holding of the land that they acquired during a war of aggression launched against them, but I never hear you say anything about that war being illegal. I suppose the UN authorized it?

That is the truth. That means Israel needs to pull out of the land they illegally hold. They have 100% obligation to give up all lands outside of the 1948 treaty.

And by that treaty Israel's neighborhads has an obligation to not begin a war of aggression against it. They failed to meet that obligation and attacked Israel, which held onto the land for secutiry purposes.

All land outside of that is occupied land and under the UN code it is illegal.

Blah Blah Blah. Israel's neighbors should be allowed to launch wars whenever they want and never have to pay a consequence for that action.

Sure CB.


No my apartment is in a city where crime happens. So should I suspect everyone to be a criminal, for it has been happening ever since the dawn of time.

Boy, you sure do like to take two completely different things and pretend they're the same. Is you city locked in a generations old conflict with it's neighbor where suicide bombers stream from you apartmenet building day in and day out with no reprieve?

If not then shut up. The situations aren't comparable

That is rather all knowing of you to say that the Palestinians know who the terrorist are. Even if they do, what does that mean?

That means when the IDF rolls into their town asking for them to hand over the terrorists, the people show the IDF where to go, get out of the way, and generally cooperate or at the very least don't get in the way. BUt they don't do that.

The IDF knows where the terrorist are too, or they wouldn't have a place to drop their bombs, or shot their missiles.

Exactly. The IDF does know where they are, which is how they know they're being lied to when the PLO and the rest of the Palestinians tell the IDF that they can't locate the terrorists.

Why should a Palestinian family living in their apartment complex fear death just because some criminal is living somewhere in their building.

Because they're locked in a ancient struggle and that family, their neighbors, and their government refuse to cooperate with international law in turning over terrorists and fighting terrorists. It is primarily the fault of the Palestinian government, but the IDF can't not prosecute the terrorists because they live in an inconveient place.

They are not responsible for who lives there, they shouldn't be forced to move just because some guy lives there who has committed a crime.

Well, if they refuse to move away from the terrorists, or turn the terrorists into an authority, or band together to force the terrorists to move then they place themselves in danger. What are you saying CB, that if a terrorist lives in a domestic neighborhood then he's allowed to murder at will because it's rude to stop him?

Should Israelis who live in the areas of IDF members be forced to go to jail for they are giving support to a terrorist (again using the definition of it).

Using your definition of it CB. Nobody is calling the IDF terrorists. They are a legitimate uniformed army that conducts itself according to the rules of war. It is simply not their fault that the terrorists do not conduct themselves that way.

And yes, I have no problems on attacks launched against legitimate military targets. If the Palestinians bomb a military base and kill the family of an IDF soldier that happened to be there I have no problem with that. I wouldn't be happy about it, because I don't like to see people killed, but that would be a legitimate stike. The targets that IDF go after are military targets, they're just located in domestic areas because the terrorists refuse to abide by the rules of war, and as a consequence the Palestinian people suffer. It is nobody's fault but the terrorists and the government that refuses to combat them. The Israelis can't be blamed (by reasonable people, so you should feel free to blame them) for the terrorists and the PLO collaberating to make the bloodshed worse then it should be.

You have to trust that the person punishing your people (not you) is doing it fairly and not out of hatred.

That remains the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The Palestinians have asked for the UN to provide peacekeepers, which instantly makes me suspicious of their motives. No CB, turning over the right to defend Israel from terrorist attacks to non-Israelis is simply not an option. It's completely retarded.

[Albinonewt]

Now, on the part about all citizens being part of the IDF. I've done some looking into it and here's how it works.

There are three levels of service in Israel. Regular military, reserves, and full moblization reserves. The first two operate the same way it works here. The last set of reserves though is kind of unique.

All Israelis between the ages of 18 and 45 are required to be trained about once a year for a few days. They are not part of the IDF in any meaningfull way (meaning they have no military duties in their normal lives). However, in the event of a full scale war, Israel can choose to mobilize it's entire population to defend their homes. Basically it means that if Israel were to be attacked every citizen would grab a rifle and defend their homes, their families, and their country. They are not regular military by any definition of the word. I am under the impression that they aren't even paid by the military for the time they train (but I honestly couldn' confirm that)

[Albinonewt]

On Iraq's ties to terrorism:

Deroy Murdock

Now, this article was written by a conservative who was attempting to prove the link, so it is biased. That being said however, it is very well researched and very well sourced, so although it should be taken with a grain of salt I do not think it a stretch to say that it is a least for the most part factually accurate.

I think at best it proves that Saddam was in league with terrorists and at worst proves that there was cause for concern. It should at the very least prevent people from saying there is no way there were links to terrorism in Baghdad. This clearly demonstrates that it was very possible, and in my opinion extremely likely.