Michael Moore is being sued!

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Army
What weapons have you actually fired...other than on your Sega "Duck Hunting" game?

Duck Hunt was Nintendo

Geez Army, and I thought you knew your stuff

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
Well Army is wrong. I showed you exact numbers from Kalashnikovs sight that said an ak 74 short without the barrel is right at ten to eleven inches.

No you didn't CB. You showed us that number one minus number two equals about 10 inches. What you didn't account for is how much of the barrel is in the assembly. What that means is when you remove the barrel you do not get the entirity of it's length in acual size reduction. It's not like the entire barrel is just glued to the front of the gun, it goes a significant ways inside the assembly for various reasons. My guess is that you save half the actual barrel length in overall size reduction.

Dear Mod who acts like a child.

No, he acts like a man that's spent 25 years defending us only to run into civies like you that refuse to listen to his life time of knowledge. You have managed in this thread to show disrespect for members of armed services and of our police agencies. And just to top it off, you created a scenario where the destruction of this nation, that Army has sacrificed for and defended for the better part of his life, would be the "best case" scenario for avoiding the destruction of earth. You never cease to amaze me.

I want to see your explanation to the grandchild of a grandmother who needlessly died at the hands of terrorist because some people thought that a guy armed with a gun could take out a group of terrorist. I want to see you explain to her that the government ended up giving the terrorist a gun that they could now use to kill his grandmother.

That's the stupidest thing you've said yet.

Well, actually it isn't, but it's up there.

Nobody wants news of their loved one's demise, but when you explain to the next of kind that their father, mother, brother, wife, etc died in a hostile attack on Americans, Americans that resisted with the aid of one of America's finest and best trained warriors, they will understand. Case in point the fine folks that lost their lives diverting a plan headed to Washington. Although their loved ones grieve, they know that those people died as heroes.

On the other hand, a plan that is literally designed to kill innocents while might be in the grander picture for the greater good simply isn't acceptable to the majority of Americans and not politically feasible.

I never said a plane will be taking down by Ak welding fellows. That was in the debate with another person about a terrorist shooting a 50 caliber, I said more then likly it would be a shot from an Ak 47 or 74. TO believe that I said the terrorist would shoot the AK 47 or 74, you have to believe the other guy thinks they could get a 50 caliber on. Since that is ludicrous, your belief of my statement has to be ludicrous also. My statement was made in the context of the Ak47 and 74 being the most widely used weapons of terrorist, so they would have more of a chance to get one, then a 50 caliber. Never did I say they will use this to take over a plane.

CB, you've said a million things about the AK. You change your posistion every time someone calls you on your false statements. IF I were you I'd stop talking about the AK and hope the subject goes away.

Take up your idea with the designer, he says that an Ak 74 Shorty without a barrel is like 10 and a half inches long.

AKS-74U Shorty Assault Rifle

Shartly doesn't have the training in dealing with radical terrorist aboard a plane against 6 guys charging at you with nothing to lose.

How do you know that? Were you Shartley's boss or something and he's forgetting that?

You would be amazed at what you can do when you are running down an aisle of an airplane with your life hanging in the limbs, and the idea of a happy afterlife or a unhappy after life, and the idea of respect after to you, all hanging by a thread.

Oh, so if th terrorists life is at risk he can carry a dead 200 pound man down the aisle while dodging fire and then charge a well trained armed person?

Well, since his life is in danger too couldn't the marshal summon the same inner energy or whatever and shoot that guy in the face?

Your fantasy land of a guy with a gun taking out 6 crazed terrorist might be bright and cheery for you, but it scares people that you and other actually believe this.

We know because we've seen the people train and we shoot on a regular basis and know our own limitiations when firing. You don't know because you have no idea what you're talking about. You just think you know something because you want it to be true so it must be.

Plus, your ignoring a VERY important thing. What is it's only 4 terrorists? Not ever terrorist attack is going to be the same. Pretend there's 5 terrorists attacks in the US next year on planes. They use, in sequence 2,3,4,5, and finally 6 hijackers. Well, the marshal can easily stop the 2 or 3. I'd say he can do the 4 without too much stress and I KNOW FACTUALLY that I can hit 5 targets quickly so we'll assume he can stop the 5 man hijacking. I'll stipulate for the sake of argument he fails on the last one.

He still prevented 4 of the 5.

No they are not frightened, who in there right minds would be in their mind set.

If you come to SC I'm going to put my glock 40 in your face and see how tough your talk is then.

And what does firing a gun have to do with the tactical ineffectiveness of a one man going against 6 or so. ( to Answer your question I have fired alot, but that adds nothing to this conversation)

Your lying. You have not fired a lot. You know nothing about anything related to shooting. How DARE you question Army's traing and Shartley's training and then lie to us like that.

And the whole reason that GUNS WERE INVENTED was the equalize a combat sitaution. That's what they're for!

All good if you have a target. And you will not even take out but the first two.

Take my word for it. You put me in the aisle with my pistol, let me pick my time to jump out and start blasting and I'll kill all of them.

DavidB and others on this idea. The button will not be in the cabin, but in the cockpit that the captain can hit whenever he feel necessary from info he gathers on a camera. Once he hits that button the mask will fall out, the terrorist will either be confined to one area or die, for I doubt they will get air tanks on board. This will leave the incapacitated for a time until the others can do their job.

I thought the pilot was too busy flying the plane to worry about the cabin. At least that's what you said when you were talking about the pilot being armed.

Plus, you make it sound like pushing the magic button instantly drops them. It's not instanteneous. Suppose the terrorists manage to knock the door to the cockpit down before they suffocate. Now what?

Maybe Army can tell us what would happen. My guess is that now everyone dies and the plan hurtles towards earth.

[shartley]

Depending on your definition of terrorist Shartly. You might have terrorist training, you might have arrested some terrorist, but you ideas of how to deal with terrorist in the manner of there thought process and what makes them want to throw their life on the line is lacking. The shear idea that you think that by dropping bombs on them we are dealing with terrorism, you show that you know not what you are talking about. Maybe you need to go take a better class. Shartly doesn't have the training in dealing with radical terrorist aboard a plane against 6 guys charging at you with nothing to lose.

You would be amazed at what you can do when you are running down an aisle of an airplane with your life hanging in the limbs, and the idea of a happy afterlife or a unhappy after life, and the idea of respect after to you, all hanging by a thread. There are many ways in which you can handle this situation without giving the terrorist a free gun.

[ShooterJM]

I'll pay you not to procreate.

[1stdeadeye]

Collegeboy: lalalalalalalala I can't hear you lalalalalalala

Army: HERE ARE THE FACTS

SHARTLEY: HERE ARE THE FACTS

The Rest of AO: HERE ARE THE FACTS

CB: lalalalalala I am right lalalalalalala



Hey CB,

Did you like Army's foam finger idea? You could poke the terrorists in the eye from a distance with minimal collateral damage.

By the way, you have gone from 8 to 10 to 10.5 inches. Care to try again?

[pito189]

Originally posted by shartley
CB, you are officially a tool.

OMG, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Collegeboy]

1st deadeye, my original statement was 10 inches, I thought I said 8, but when someone posted what I said, it just added more credibility to my post for I was only .5 or so inches off.


No Albinonewt I showed you a link, try page 11 about 3/4's the way or so down. When you resort to calling people names for they don't agree with you, then are acting like a child. If my grandmother gets killed because of the governments rapid belief in a system that is ineffective, then you can bet I will be mad.

I have been in millions of different debates on this forum, of course I can make one post and it not be intended for the overall discussion, but be on something similar. Hence the AK situation. It was a two part discussion, one was me saying that the AK was the most widely used gun, hence if the terrorist would get any gun, they would have an AK, not saying they would actually get it into a plane. The second is the length, which I have proven to be right, I could care less if it is ineffective without the barrel, that was not the debate. The debate was can an AK be made to be 10 inches. The answer is it can be made to be 10.5 inches or so. Your idea on the barrel being longer then the receiver is funny, if you go check out the web site I provided you, you will see why.

Or if you are too lazy here is it again, but actually the original source for the info.

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/models/ka114.html

[Konigballer]

CB, why do you think terrorists are some kind of super soldiers?

It doesnt matter how much motivation, faith, belief in their cause, or willingness to sacrafice a person has. If they are in a tactical disadvantage in a combat situation, they will die just the same as any other guy.

In WW2 it can be pretty much assured that no fighting man, save maybe for some of the waffen ss, possesed the fanatasism and idealogical motivation of the Japanese soldier in the Pacific theater. More than willing to sacrafice his life for his nation, this dedication did not translate to victory against less motivated american troops who were just trying to survive. They were definetley not super soldiers. They often made the wrong tactical decisions in combat and died because of it.

You banzai charge a machine gun position with a bolt action rifle, you die...

You rush a trained and armed air marshall down a tiny aisle, with what would most likely NOT be an assault rifle but instead a knife or box cutter, you die....

The blood of fanatics can be spilled out just as easy, if not easier, than that of a "normal" man when the tactical advantage lies with their opponent.

Thats what Army's "him vs. a 100 terrorists" aisle situation is trying to illustrate. The tactical advantage would almost completely lie with the pistol firing air marshall, or in this case AO's local gi joe Army. It would'nt matter who had the stronger belief in their cause or who was more willing to die.

As long as there was the extra ammo to allow continuous firing, he could concieveably keep dropping opponents one after the other in any aisle combat situation with any realistic number of terrorists. The bodies of their first casualties and the occupied passenger seats on either side would form a barrier to stop any advance to take out the air marshall. They would have no place to advance to change their situation. Faith would mean nothing against cold tactical reality.

In this situation Shartley, Army, or anyone else with even "average training" for combat situations could nullify all psychological advantages, in fanaticism, belief in ideology, etc, that the terrorists would possess.

Its understandible that you can not comprehend this tactical reality, you are Collegeboy after all...
However I think its insulting that you think others, like Shartely or Army, who possess far more training than you ever will, would not be able to function effectively in this basically one sided aisle combat situation. Once agian, I'll just quote myself from previous pages because the point obviously still stands.

"Your arguement on that point, as with all your others in this debate, is inadmissible because its completely based on ignorance. Please, feel free to admit you cannot argue in this debate with any kind of validity as you do not have the knowledge to do so."

[Konigballer]

...and yes I agree AN's "gun to the head" comment was out of line. I was just daydreaming about bunkering you!

[shartley]

Originally posted by shartley

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
We had a debate on the effectiveness of bombing terrorist. I pointed out that with ever civilian that dies from the bombing you will get two in its place.

Yes you pointed out your unsubstantiated opinion, and it has been pointed out to you that there is historical precedence that the MORE vicious the repercussions, the less terrorism.

You know, basically the complete opposite of what you think.

You have no basis in reality and the more I read the more I think that you must have some sort of mental disability.

The phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


Yes you pointed out your unsubstantiated opinion, and it has been pointed out to you that there is historical precedence that the MORE vicious the repercussions, the less terrorism.

You know, basically the complete opposite of what you think.

You have no basis in reality and the more I read the more I think that you must have some sort of mental disability.

The phrase "Casting pearls before swine" comes to mind.

The only way you will get rid of terrorism with force is to kill everyone in the world. God tried to get the Israelis to kill all the now Palestinians in the Old Testament, they killed all but one. And look where we are now.

They are not in a tactful disadvantage. If you have one guy in the back with a gu(edit: n), against 6 guys going against him with endless screens or deterrents (passengers), added to that fact a devotion that would allow him to crash a plane into a building for his beliefs. One guy with a gun, no matter the training he as, will not be able to take out all 6 terrorist, before the terrorist get to him, and take his weapon.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
That was 20 years ago dude. It is not easy to get something like that on a plane anymore. Sure, the occasional box cutter like that kid...

Yes it was. However, I don't think airline security has improved enough that it couldn't happen again. Remember, he put that thing through the x-ray machine at least 10 consecutive times without detection. Granted, that's not going to happen again. But I believe I could carry a handgun onboard a plane. Think in pieces and not all in the same place. And, I have NO training in that area at all. Also remember that the kid took "stuff" on MANY flights and was NEVER caught. Not a good sign if you ask me.

Originally posted by Albinonewt
especially an assault rifle like CB is talking),

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
They are not in a tactful disadvantage. If you have one guy in the back with a guy, against 6 guys going against him with endless screens or deterrents (passengers), added to that fact a devotion that would allow him to crash a plane into a building for his beliefs. One guy with a gun, no matter the training he as, will not be able to take out all 6 terrorist, before the terrorist get to him, and take his weapon.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
God tried to get the Israelis to kill all the now Palestinians in the Old Testament, they killed all but one. And look where we are now.

My point exactly. Kill them, kill anyone that knew about them, etc. It'll be deterrent. I mean, look at how many thousands of years it took before the palestinians started suicide bombing em?