My car was vandelized

[NJPaint]

What human rights would you make Israel recognize? They don't actually DO anything to the palestinians. People complain that they make it hard for Palestinians to go to work in Israel, but so what? Why does Israel HAVE to let palestinians into their country to work? Every other nation on earth has some sort of border control, why can't the most attacked country on earth? Then there's the complaint that the Palestinians live in poverty and terrible conditions. Well, so does most of the population in the middle east, Israel didn't cause it. The corruptness of the Palestinian government causes that. Palestina gets massive aid from the US and other nations and its never spent on feeding and housing its citizens like its supposed to be. The simple truth is Palestine is to blame for the bulk of its own problems.

Israel has however killed many Palestinian citizens, some terrorist and some "innocent". (I put innocent in quotes like that because a lot of times it isn't clear if they're innocent. Its usually people that get killed accidentally because of proximity to the targeted terrorist(s) or a gunfight. They themselves are not targeted by Israel and are an unfortunate byproduct of the war). Israel conducts targeted killings aimed at killing terrorists and terror leader and destroying weapons. I have no problem with that. Israel doesn't respond to suicide bombs by blowing up a mosque and killing hundreds. They go to the home of the terrorists that planned the attack and kill them. I don't like it when a civillian gets caught in the crossfire, but its the terrorists themselves that put those people in that situation. Israel can't NOT retaliate just because the terrorists hide among civillians. Its an ugly business but there's just no way around it.

On the other hand, if I were Israel I would stop the targeted killing. I'm not completely conviced its really helping and I'm very certain that whatever benefit there is to the targeted killing it is outweighed by the negatives, which is constant condemnation by a very anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian UN security council. I really like Sharon's policy of Unilateral disengagement, and I hope and pray he pulls it off. Because that will finally protect the Israelis, return a large portion of the land Palestine claims, and it will do that all without Palestine's cooperation. I pray every day for that.

Sharon is worse than Arafat. Sabra and Shatila is meaning enough. I don't care how much money Arafat stole, Sharon's massacre and backing of settlements makes him infinately worse. Don't be fooled by Sharon's "unilateral disengagement". That was aimed at Gaza. As Sharon put the idea of taking down those settlements, he started building 6-7 new ones, furthering the West Bank's disection.

About the work, this is what I don't like. I don't the idea of a "Jewish State", just as I don't like the idea of a "Christian State". Now, I am agnostic, but my family is deeply tied into the Christian religion. But, I know that a country run by a religion is never fair. THIS is why the US has a "seperation of church and state". Did you know that only Jews can represent people in Israeli courts? Why should we tolerate a country that has such an obvious bias towards citizens? I think that they should be treated fairly in the eyes of the US. I like the idea of the US/UN regulating the border between the two, at least for a while. Is it a strain on the US? Yes, but hey, we've given Israel more than 3 billion a year since '67 so maybe we should get some results...

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE=NJPaint]End Aid to Palestinians? What aid? It is illegal to give money to the Palestinians because you will become a "terrorist".[/b]

Its certainly not illegal to provide humantarian aid, but so seldom does that humantarian aid get to the intended.

Cut off aid to Hamas and Islamic Jihad? I agree wholeheartedly, but then again, we aren't PAYING them to kill Israelis, we are paying Israel to do it.

that's just ignorant. We don't pay Israel to kill Palestinians. We give them aid because the Palestinians have destroyed the Israeli economy.

Link to the aid we give to palestine... Also, giving money to them doesn't do anything, it all evaporates. But they need the help more than the Israelis do, like I said, they need water, electricity and you want to talk security...

We give them money for all those things. Arafat and his thugs steal it.

Palestine doesn't target civilians, Terrorist groups do. If you think all Arabs are terrorists, well **** you racist.

Well screw you too. I never said that at all. Of course not all Palestinians are terrorists. In fact, I said the exact opposit when I vouched for the stats of where terrorists come from. However, the Palestinian government does support and facilitate terrorism (and they use our aid money to do it).

You want to hit terrorist groups hard financially, I'm all for it, but saying that Palestinians want to kill off all Israelis is wrong.

Its certainly more true then it is flase though. Unfortunately, due to the corruption at the highest level of Palestinian government and the "education" programs in Palestina the people that live there have grown up believing that Israel is the single cause of all their problems and that its existance is the only thing that's keeping Palestine from being great and that all Jews need to be wiped out. While certainly not all Palestinians are willing to take up arms against the Israelis it is getting rarer and rarer to find one that does not believe Israel should be destroyed. T

he best is to compare the Settler's goals to Hamas' goals. They are the same in terms of aims, except that the settlers are welfare children, living off of US tax dollars doing absolutely nothing for ANYONE and Hamas blows stuff up, but also build schools, provide food for the poor and build shelters. Black Panthers anyone?

Oh shut up. The settlers do build their own towns, schools, hospitals, and the whole package. They also don't attack Palestine. They build a settlement and then try to live there. That's it. Now, the settlements are a really stupid idea, and stretch the Israeli military thin as well as giving the mudereous thugs in Hamas an soft target, but it is not inherently evil.

Hamas on the other hand gets its money from the palestinian government, which gets its money from international aid (including ours). Also, they build schools to teach kids to kill Israelis, so don't go thinking its anything noble.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE WHAT THEY DO RIGHT! Both groups need to be eliminated, but trying to eliminate one extremist group and turning a blind eye towards another just fuels their cause.

That's just sheer stupidity. The settlers do not need to be eliminated. The settlements themselves should be taken down, because its the smart thing to do, but the people themselves are just ordinary people trying to live life in their own little town. Hamas is trying to kill every Jew they can find. The members of the militant Hamas need to be hunted down and killed, because they are evil.

[Albinonewt]

Aid to Palestine

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[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE=NJPaint]Sharon is worse than Arafat. Sabra and Shatila is meaning enough. I don't care how much money Arafat stole, Sharon's massacre and backing of settlements makes him infinately worse. Don't be fooled by Sharon's "unilateral disengagement". That was aimed at Gaza. As Sharon put the idea of taking down those settlements, he started building 6-7 new ones, furthering the West Bank's disection.

Arafat is the probably one of the most evil men alive. He's squandered every opportunity to end the violence. Arafat is the reason for violence. Israel wants to exist and Arafat wants to destroy them. He is the instigator of violence, not Israel. Now, Sharon did build the settlements, an idea that I have always disapproved up, but he has in the past and now in the present dismanteled some of the settlemts and is consolidating the Israeli posistion so as to minimze their intrustion on palestine wihle at the same time maintaining the defense of his nation. Why does Sharon HAVE to let his people get killed to satisfy Palestine?

About the work, this is what I don't like. I don't the idea of a "Jewish State", just as I don't like the idea of a "Christian State".

But you don't seem to have a problem with a Muslim state, which is what every other middle eastern nation is. Funny...

Now, I am agnostic, but my family is deeply tied into the Christian religion. But, I know that a country run by a religion is never fair.

Well, since Palestine has no jews but Israel has hundreds of thousands of Muslims I'll take that to mean that you now support Israel and are against Palestine.

THIS is why the US has a "seperation of church and state". Did you know that only Jews can represent people in Israeli courts? Why should we tolerate a country that has such an obvious bias towards citizens?

You're right. We should definitly cut off all aid to every muslim nation'

I think that they should be treated fairly in the eyes of the US. I like the idea of the US/UN regulating the border between the two, at least for a while. Is it a strain on the US? Yes, but hey, we've given Israel more than 3 billion a year since '67 so maybe we should get some results...

We've asked to be involved militarily in the border, Arafat said no. And we have gotten results, Israel is still a nation, so the money has obviously done some good.

[NJPaint]

That's just sheer stupidity. The settlers do not need to be eliminated. The settlements themselves should be taken down, because its the smart thing to do, but the people themselves are just ordinary people trying to live life in their own little town. Hamas is trying to kill every Jew they can find. The members of the militant Hamas need to be hunted down and killed, because they are evil.

Just as the Palestinians are normal ordinary people trying to live life...

[Automaggin2]

I don't feel bad for you. Sorry.

Same. Thats what you get for having a retarded bumper sticker. That may be offensive to some people.

[NJPaint]

[QUOTE=Albinonewt]

Sharon is worse than Arafat. Sabra and Shatila is meaning enough. I don't care how much money Arafat stole, Sharon's massacre and backing of settlements makes him infinately worse. Don't be fooled by Sharon's "unilateral disengagement". That was aimed at Gaza. As Sharon put the idea of taking down those settlements, he started building 6-7 new ones, furthering the West Bank's disection.[/b]

Arafat is the probably one of the most evil men alive. He's squandered every opportunity to end the violence. Arafat is the reason for violence. Israel wants to exist and Arafat wants to destroy them. He is the instigator of violence, not Israel. Now, Sharon did build the settlements, an idea that I have always disapproved up, but he has in the past and now in the present dismanteled some of the settlemts and is consolidating the Israeli posistion so as to minimze their intrustion on palestine wihle at the same time maintaining the defense of his nation. Why does Sharon HAVE to let his people get killed to satisfy Palestine?

Arafat evil? Why? Because he didn't go with the 1993 Clinton stuff? The "Prison state" solution? the "95% of the land" idea? Have you ever seen the map of the 1993 solution? it looks remarkably like a prison map. All the borders are controlled by Israel and everything is discected by settlements. In a prison, the guards need only control a crucial 5% to control the entire area. Do you even know what Sabra and Shatila is? He doesn't have to let his people get killed.

About the muslim state... I never said I supported Muslim states... they are in the same category as all the other religous states. I didn't think that you would bother bringing that up considering that I condemned all religious run governments.

[Albinonewt]

Just as the Palestinians are normal ordinary people trying to live life...

And I don't think they should be killed. I in fact said as much. It is a very unfortunate situation when they are killed and it is deeply regretable. However, that still doesn't mean that Israel should stop fighting the terrorists because the terrorists have put civillian lives at risk.

[Albinonewt]

Same. Thats what you get for having a retarded bumper sticker. That may be offensive to some people.

I'm going to disagree here.

It was a stupid bumper sticker and I totally disagree with it. But, that doesn't mean the car or the sticker should be destroyed.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE=NJPaint]Arafat evil? Why? Because he didn't go with the 1993 Clinton stuff? The "Prison state" solution? the "95% of the land" idea? Have you ever seen the map of the 1993 solution? it looks remarkably like a prison map. All the borders are controlled by Israel and everything is discected by settlements. In a prison, the guards need only control a crucial 5% to control the entire area. Do you even know what Sabra and Shatila is? He doesn't have to let his people get killed.[/b]

No, because Arafat supports the terrorist organizations. Because he imported hundreds of tons of weapons into Palestine in secret (and we interdicted the ship) for the terrorists using aid money. Because he incites the terror and because he undermines every attempt at peace (including the recent attepts for him to share power with moderates). Arafat doesn't want a Palestinian state. he wants the conflict. In a conflict he has power. In a state he has none.

About the muslim state... I never said I supported Muslim states... they are in the same category as all the other religous states. I didn't think that you would bother bringing that up considering that I condemned all religious run governments.

You specifically condemned Chistian and Jewish states. You took the time to specifically mention the two states liberals have problems with and specifically failed to mention the Muslim states that have a tendency to try to destroy them. You also failed to mention that Palestine itself when it is a state will be a Muslim state. In fact your specific quote was "About the work, this is what I don't like. I don't the idea of a "Jewish State", just as I don't like the idea of a "Christian State". "

[1stdeadeye]

I'm going to disagree here.

It was a stupid bumper sticker and I totally disagree with it. But, that doesn't mean the car or the sticker should be destroyed.

Exactly. The car should be damaged because he put a bumper sticker on a Lexus!