How do we fix AO?

[OysterBoy]

Withdrawn.

I sincerely hope things get back on track.. AO used to really cheer me up and get me thinking.

[Miscue]

Again, and your pretty famous for this, you assume everything played out in public. When in fact things happened off AO and you would be suprised how nasty they were. But I cannot talk about it. But again.... I caution you.. to not assume you have seen it all or know it all from what you see in posts here on AO. You would be mistaken.

Yeah, that's a problem. There's often a background story that others are not aware of, and then do not understand why we take certain actions. We should not have to explain it everytime.

[Lohman446]

I posted this in another thread.. and think it is worth posting here again, I beleive the problem lies in that we, as individuals, think of "we" in the collective, rather than "we" in the individual, as a group of individuals.

Many of us have asked this question of ourselves in a what can we as a collective can do to fix AO. Is it more moderators, a different format, a different forum, etc.?

Let me take a moment and instead discuss what we... as individuals can do to promote an AO that is more friendly and "deeper" than other forums. These following things are not jabs at anyone, and I am often guilty of them myselfs. Perhaps they don't apply to friendly corner, where I have a lot of fun and enjoy posting.

~We can take the time to read every post to a subject before replying. To consider each viewpoint, and how its holder got there.

~We can make our views static, available to change. I will confess I have some beleifs, some views, that you are not going to change. However, lets try to have discussions, to mold each of our beleifs. They are discussions, not arguments. Taking points and ideas from those that would disagree with you and molding them into your own is not loosing.

~We can think, for a moment or two, before replying. Let our thougths come together, rather than just throwing out our base reactions.

~We can simply not respond to those who would inject themselves into a discussion for nothing more than disruptment but not hold ourselved above anyone. Consider each viewpoint... some of the most valid ideas come from unlikely sources.

~We can hold ourselves to standards we find acceptable. In discussion, in grammar, in spelling. We can can make our own standards higher than anyone elses... and realize noone as perfect. With that known we cannot fault others for simple mistakes.

This... in my opinion, is the way we should think if we are to bring back the "old AO". Its not the system to change.. its how we function in the system.

[Lohman446]

Yeah, that's a problem. There's often a background story that others are not aware of, and then do not understand why we take certain actions. We should not have to explain it everytime.

Agreed, a simple rule change

-- Discussion of specific moderator action or actions is to be done through private means only - they are not a topic of public discussion because of factors not always apparent. Moderators will not publically defend there actions and will simply ban users violating this rule and deleting posts find to violate this rule.

[gimp]

AO was great because it felt like a community. I'd never actually met anyone on here, but it didn't matter. It's still good because under all the drama that's been happening lately, there still is a community. I'm not sure what has changed, but I think I know when it started to change. People started talking about 'the old AO'. I think that caused a problem, not just talking about it, but complaining about how it changed. That got so popular, so everyone was doing it. People jumped on the bandwagon because they didn't want to be considered 'the new AO', or 'PBNrs'.

Another thing that seems to be more frequent in the past couple months is complaining and people being annoying. There are always going to be a couple people who post some annoying posts all the time. It's easy to ignore them. The problem is when people start to complain about it. They just add to the problem. If you look at the number of views for the threads, the stupid annoying ones would have so much more views than the 'intelligent' posts. People say 'this post is stupid, your dumb', 'that's why he's on my ignore list', 'what a waste of time', etc. If it's stupid, or a waste of time, why post in it. Your just bumping it to the top of the page. This place wouldn't be friendly if we didn't have stupid posts. We've always had stupid posts, but there was a lot less drama around them. That made the more intelligent posts get more visibility.

I don't think the mod's have the power to 'fix' this place. If someone causes a problem, banning him will just cause more people to complain. For every popular member that gets banned, a few followers go with him. At that rate, nobody will be left. It's up to the members. Right now everyone is all riled up. People need to calm down. We shouldn't even need moderators, we should be able to moderate ourselves. The mods should step in when we're unable to do that. And that shouldn't happen to often. Now I lost my train of thought and I'm rambling.

*edit - Man you guys are fast. There was like, 3 replies when I started writing this. Now there are a lot of good ones.

[cphilip]

Great post Lohman!

Miscue, the problem is... as you know... I spend lots of time explaining... over and over... and yet, what happens? Tonight several people have called us Nazis and accused us of not allowing discussion! I give up! I try and try to explain the reasoning and all... but they chose NOT to get it!

[Miscue]

One idea I had is: A paintball topic of the week... or something. Sticky it. Change it next week.

We gotta do something different... something to liven up the place. Something that will catch the interest of the sorts of people that make AO good.

Ideas? Or am I wishfully thinking?

[OysterBoy]

One idea I had is: A paintball topic of the week... or something. Sticky it. Change it next week.

We gotta do something different... something to liven up the place. Something that will catch the interest of the sorts of people that make AO good.

Ideas? Or am I wishfully thinking?

What would it hurt ?

One thing I kind of dislike is the abundance of stickies in general.. I know, minor gripes. I do however think weekly polls / topics would be great.

[fire1811]

another thing is that its winter not much paintball or anything else to do.

when people get bored they will make something to do. and at the moment that seems to be complaining

[PBX Ronin 23]

What about "annoying" or "rude" members. There isn't really a rule against that. Should there be?

Who defines "annoying" and "rude"? If you can do that to the satisfaction of most (if not all) then adopt a zero tolerance policy, then it's a step in the right direction.

There are also quite a bit of other things as well. Take heed to Fire1811's opinion about the less mature. Unfortunately the younger crowd is an ever increasing group in paintball. But not all of them are Knuckleheads. There are sharp young dudes like Lurker 27 who frequent this forum. Make it furtile grounds for young guys like him.

Decorum. Maintain it. This is a PG rated forum. The older guys who (and some of the younger guys as well) may appreciate contents of a more mature nature. Personally so do I. But it is neither our individual right or perogative to introduce such items into an privately owned forum who's owner is intent on keeping the environment "family" oriented. Those who cannot see the value of respecting this boundary, well what else can be said.

Keep intense discussions civil. Those who enjoy debating their points cleanly and in a polite manner may not necessarily get the same in return. Lesser minds tend to stray towards hostile retorts because they may not be able to go toe-to-toe on legitemate grounds. Don't escalate. The merits of an arguement should stand on its own and there will be people who will either agree or disagree with your perspective. Neither your nor I will always be right.

Come up with some type of an acknowledgement system to recognize those who contribute productively. Those who enrich AO either through their intellect or their willingness to help others should be held in better esteem within the AO community.

The best of AO to me represents the inteligensia of the the paintball community. We might not all see things eye to eye but at the very least we all tried to enlighten one another in a constructive way.....this is the AO that I remember and the standard that should be maintained.

Lastly, I am saddened in some measure of the loss of certain long-standing members of the community. Whether we saw each other eye to eye or not, there are certain people I will miss for what it is that they've contributed. Good luck to you and my best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

[Miscue]

Great post Lohman!

Miscue, the problem is... as you know... I spend lots of time explaining... over and over... and yet, what happens? Tonight several people have called us Nazis and accused us of not allowing discussion! I give up! I try and try to explain the reasoning and all... but they chose NOT to get it!

Well... we keep tabs on what each other does. If there was a blatant problem... another mod would step in. So none of us can go into Nazi mode - because the others would notice... and most of us do pay attention to what the other does.

But sometimes... things go on between a couple mods and some person or group, and the other mods have no idea what's going on. In those situations, I have to trust their judgment based on track record and what I know of them. I know I've gone off on a limb before, and other mods would say "I not sure about what you're doing, but I'll trust you." And that seems to work out pretty well.

[thecavemankevin]

There are PMs and e-mail for this type of thing, noone else needs to see the whining. Disagree with a moderator, fine, state that disagreement to them, perhaps to several moderators, but remember they, not you, not your precious clique, hold the power. In the end, chances are you were wrong. Apologize, get over it, and move on. If this sounds to hard... grow up. The moderators try... publically whining about them is an annoyance to most of us. The moderators are not out to get you, I'm certain they have better things to do. Broke a rule, was it a mistake, apologize, learn, and be better in the future.

but it is when the mods don't answer/reply to the pm's ect that people start posting out loud. I know i have had a few issues in the past, tried pm's to several mods for a day or two and NEVER EVER heard back. So next i turned to voicing out loud. Only then did i get a reply.

[Head knight of Ni]

I think Cphil hit it on the head. Older members have an elitest attitude, Its not right and not all old members have the attitude. Why the sudden problem? Who knows who cares. AO has no real problems, survival of the fittest. Like gravity the rules are there and you know it, some idiots still jump of their roofs.

PS Lohman you can change it from 4-5 posts.

[Miscue]

Who defines "annoying" and "rude"? If you can do that to the satisfaction of most (if not all) then adopt a zero tolerance policy, then it's a step in the right direction.

There are also quite a bit of other things as well. Take heed to Fire1811's opinion about the less mature. Unfortunately the younger crowd is an ever increasing group in paintball. But not all of them are Knuckleheads. There are sharp young dudes like Lurker 27 who frequent this forum. Make it furtile grounds for young guys like him.

Decorum. Maintain it. This is a PG rated forum. The older guys who (and some of the younger guys as well) may appreciate contents of a more mature nature. Personally so do I. But it is neither our individual right or perogative to introduce such items into an privately owned forum who's owner is intent on keeping the environment "family" oriented. Those who cannot see the value of respecting this boundary, well what else can be said.

Keep intense discussions civil. Those who enjoy debating their points cleanly and in a polite manner may not necessarily get the same in return. Lesser minds tend to stray towards hostile retorts because they may not be able to go toe-to-toe on legitemate grounds. Don't escalate. The merits of an arguement should stand on its own and there will be people who will either agree or disagree with your perspective. Neither your nor I will always be right.

Come up with some type of an acknowledgement system to recognize those who contribute productively. Those who enrich AO either through their intellect or their willingness to help others should be held in better esteem within the AO community.

The best of AO to me represents the inteligensia of the the paintball community. We might not all see things eye to eye but at the very least we all tried to enlighten one another in a constructive way.....this is the AO that I remember and the standard that should be maintained.

Lastly, I am saddened in some measure of the loss of certain long-standing members of the community. Whether we saw each other eye to eye or not, there are certain people I will miss for what it is that they've contributed. Good luck to you and my best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

I was begging the question and was waiting for someone to respond! Yes, how do you determine that?

It's tough to do fairly. It's easier to enforce a rule equally, that affects everybody - and is enforced the same way with everybody.

I personally am leaning towards stricter rules. The mature folks will be uneffected. The less mature will be. And, I think this would be fair - and get some results that would be beneficial.

If you notice, AO is cleaner than other forums - and has a better atmosphere. This did not happen by accident - but by enforcing the rules.

[Fred]

Is it really broken, or just a matter of things changing over time?

Its not just broke, its pretty darn near FUBAR. A few squeeky wheels weren't oiled, and the whole machine has exploded.

What made AO good?

It used to be fun, laid back, with a very solid group of "old timers" that contributed and made these forums entertaining enjoyable... recently the fun has been gone.

What still makes it good?

A few old timers are still around.

What has changed?

The old timers left for a variety of reasons, not limited to a rather large influx of kiddies who don't understand the AO culture we had a few years ago.

How do we improve it?

Bring back the old AO culture, it won't happen by coddling newbies and ostrisizing old timers.

---Fred