AO Brouhaha - An Observation

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  • PBX Ronin 23
    Registered User
    • Jul 2004
    • 518

    #1

    AO Brouhaha - An Observation

    What happens when Someone who is attempting to correct a malfeasance in AO and is told to go (expletive) himself?

    From what I gather, the brouhaha was ignited with an attempt to civilly address an existing problem concerning a Signature that linked to a forum that may have been ill-suited for minors. A Mod properly asked a formerly-banned Member to "remove" a link to a site where subjects that's ill-suited to the PG environment of AO were openly discussed. Granted that 90% of AOers probably wouldn't have been offended by the contents of the "other" site and in all likelihood will get a kick out of it, it was nonetheless against the acceptable level of decorum in AO.

    If any viewers of AO were to 'click' onto that site which did not have any mechanism to prevent under-aged viewers from reading its content, AO by virtue of providing a launch point to enter that site is complicit in providing that minor with material that's inappropriate for their age.

    It is my understanding that the Mod would have also accepted keeping the link if the site were to institute some protocol that would have hidden the sensitive materials from "unregistered" guests. But before further discussion can be carried out, the Member in question became hostile and wouldn't listen to the reason why it had to be done. Instead, said Member resorted to expletives during a discussion with said Mod on Chat. Hmmmm.

    AO Mods should like NPPL Refs (an Analogy).

    When I reffed an NPPL event in the past, we were told that regardless of whether you agree with a call made by a fellow ref, we all needed to stand united together behind that call and that Ref. We couldn't show any sympathy for players harmed by a bad call since that call couldn't be taken back and the outcome of the game couldn't be changed. Failure to act uncompromisingly in unison will only lead to an uglier post-game spectacle that would slow down the tournament.

    One Ref undermining a fellow Ref can only lead to confusion on the field and bigger problems for everyone involved.

    Being a Mod is a thankless enough job. Mods were selected from their perceived ability to equally and non-discriminately enforce the policies of AO. Some may be better at the job than others. But when things go wrong, a united front they must remain while they sort out what went wrong and implement corrective measure.

    The perceived factitiousness of the Mod Team did not help their cause. If for nothing else, an unquestioned sense of empathy should be extended amongst the Mods for they all have to perform the same thankless and unpaid task of policing the forums.

    The Real Troublemakers should stay out of it.

    What good did it do for a non-contributing member to come out after months of absence just to assail someone for implementing AO's policies. This particular person has had a history of crossing the line in particular attacking a fellow member (who he has had disagreements with in the past) at his work place.

    The level of vindictiveness displayed wasn't even openly criticized in this very forum.......for shame. But worse yet is the perceived harboring of such an individual by those who felt slighted with the enforcement of policies that are the requisite of a Mod's job.

    The melee that ensued could have been prevented or at the very least minimized by not having someone whose only intent was to incite ill will participate in the argument.

    AO has been a Smoldering Cauldron of Dissatisfaction.

    This has been the underlying theme that everyone seems to bring up in my conversations with them. Sad but true. No one can seem to pin point the reason why. The closest thing to an explanation that I've gotten seems to point out two relatively new members of AO who have been incessant in their post-whoring and disruptive/disrespectful behavior.

    The two individuals in question in my estimation should have been perm banned a long time ago. AO should change its existing rules to deal with such disruptive individuals who do nothing except cause turmoil in the forums.

    In my research of these two individuals in questions, I have yet to find a meaningful enough post to suggest that they are indeed contributing towards the overall well-being of AO. They have been given enough latitude by the Mods but there has to be a certain limit to the Moderating Teams generosity.

    If the Mods are indeed the guardians at the gate, perhaps a more visible attempt to correct this problem should have been enacted. Letting it stew only leads to further dissatisfaction amongst the members.

    Whinny Members.......

    Just stop whining. If a current situation is not to your liking, then take a sabbatical until things get corrected. If things don't get corrected to your satisfaction, then exit gracefully and with little fanfare.

    Some of the threads started seemed to be begging for attention because the authors are unhappy with the current state of affairs.

    AO isn't going to go down because some individuals have left or will be leaving. AO is digressing because of the relative lack of quality discussions and the jovial nature that it once exemplified has waned. We can all point fingers at one another but in the end we must all choose whether we want to be part of the problem or part of the solution.

    The first step to correcting the problem is to accept that there is a problem....not to whine like little kiddies. Accountability is the mature way to deal with things. Going away whining isn't.

    A community is only as good as the willingness of its members to maintain the quality of life within that community. It is incumbent upon those who claim that they value this community to do something positive on the community's behalf. Lip service gets you no where. If you do indeed still care about what happens here, then do your part.

    Find things to build....not things to break down.
    /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
    PBX Battlezone
    PBX Paintball Station Inc.
    PBX Ballistix Lab
    PBX@NYC Paintball
  • Miscue
    Super Moderator

    • Oct 2000
    • 7105

    #2
    This sort of overturn has never happened before to my knowledge. Normally, we support each other even if in mild disagreement.

    Speaking of referee analogies... this is what we did:
    Last edited by Miscue; 01-24-2005, 10:25 AM.

    Comment

    • PBX Ronin 23
      Registered User
      • Jul 2004
      • 518

      #3
      Sorry Miscue but I can't seem to read what it is that you posted.
      /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
      PBX Battlezone
      PBX Paintball Station Inc.
      PBX Ballistix Lab
      PBX@NYC Paintball

      Comment

      • Thordic
        AFTICA
        • May 2001
        • 5986

        #4
        Originally posted by PBX Ronin 23
        What happens when Someone who is attempting to correct a malfeasance in AO and is told to go (expletive) himself?

        From what I gather, the brouhaha was ignited with an attempt to civilly address an existing problem concerning a Signature that linked to a forum that may have been ill-suited for minors. A Mod properly asked a formerly-banned Member to "remove" a link to a site where subjects that's ill-suited to the PG environment of AO were openly discussed. Granted that 90% of AOers probably wouldn't have been offended by the contents of the "other" site and in all likelihood will get a kick out of it, it was nonetheless against the acceptable level of decorum in AO.

        If any viewers of AO were to 'click' onto that site which did not have any mechanism to prevent under-aged viewers from reading its content, AO by virtue of providing a launch point to enter that site is complicit in providing that minor with material that's inappropriate for their age.

        It is my understanding that the Mod would have also accepted keeping the link if the site were to institute some protocol that would have hidden the sensitive materials from "unregistered" guests. But before further discussion can be carried out, the Member in question became hostile and wouldn't listen to the reason why it had to be done. Instead, said Member resorted to expletives during a discussion with said Mod on Chat. Hmmmm.
        Since this post was brought to my attention, and addresses me in particular, I'll reply to this part.

        I was messaged on IRC saying my sig was gone, and that I was not allowed to link to my website / forums on AO anymore. Now, I have had my forums linked on AO since Feb. 5th, 2004, the day they were created. If you do the math you'll see that they have been linked for just shy of a year, and NEVER has any mod or other member made any sort of complaint to me. Not once had I heard anyone even HINT that it wasn't allowed, or that it should be removed. Not only that, but I'm sure many around here remember the Team Black Cell forums. Their forums were easily more offensive than mine, especially due the fact that pornography was in open view there. And they were linked to AO for a long time, and at no point were they shut down or told they could not link to the forums on AO. I saw this as not more than a little bit of hypocrisy in the application of the rules.

        I told the mod who removed my sig I didn't agree with his actions, and that I would take my case to Webby. He told me that it had already been decided in the mod forum, and there was no point going to talk to Webby. Now I was rather upset because my sig had been allowed for over a year, and yet now the mods, 90% of which whom I know and have met personally, are talking about it behind closed doors, and all the while not a simple request was made of me to do something about it?

        There was no option for changing the sig given. At no point was I informed that there were any alternatives. Had I been contacted prior to the removal of my sig and the following statement that there was nothing I could do short of going to Tom or Zupe or whoever, something could have been worked out.

        Such options were NOT presented when my sig was removed. For some reason it seems to have been assumed by a lot of people that I was given options and simply chose to ignore them, but this is not the case. I was told that the decision had already been made, and I'd just have to deal with it.

        Honestly, I was hurt by this attitude. I've known most of the mods and been friends with them for years. I don't expect preferential treatment if I break the rules, but I do expect some sort of respect. At some point while it was being discussed in the mod forum, someone could have contacted me (there are various easy and well-known methods of doing so, being as most of the mods have everything down to my cell phone number) and informed me there was an issue with linking to my forums. And a compromise could have been reached. But it wasn't approached this way.

        Between this action, and the fact that AO as a whole has been deteriorating over the past months, I decided I had enough of AO, so I posted that I was leaving. It wasn't the most polite exit, but at that point being polite was the last thing on my mind.

        As for all the actions that exploded afterwards, I'm still rather clueless. I left for Atlantic City the next morning and was gone all weekend. But its been brewing for a long time. Discontent has been on the rise lately around here. And you can't say it was a "clique" thing entirely, as people whom I have had prior disagreements with on many occassions were involved in the situation and we found ourselves looking at it in the same way. A lot of people have felt for months now that AO has been starting to crumble, that its feeling of community and family has been falling apart. THIS is what the reaction was to more than any single action taken by / against me (or by / against LPB, who has also been named as the "cause" for what occurred).

        I applaud the mod team for finally realizing there is a problem, and taking steps to fix it. Personally, I plan on sticking with what I said earlier. I don't intend on returning to AO in any real manner. I'll read a few posts over here every now and then, but thats about it. I just felt that as someone who is seen as the cause of a lot of the drama that has gone on here in the past few days, I should try to give some sort of response.

        Comment

        • Target Practice
          irc.zirc.org:6667 = chat!
          • Nov 2003
          • 3180

          #5
          EDIT: Okay, okay, okay...so it's not over.

          Yet.
          Last edited by Target Practice; 01-24-2005, 01:04 PM.


          "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." --Henry Louis Mencken.

          Comment

          • Miscue
            Super Moderator

            • Oct 2000
            • 7105

            #6
            Originally posted by Target Practice
            You forgot People who beat a dead horse after everything has blown over.
            Nah, it's not quite to that point yet. Almost.

            Comment

            • bofh
              Waldorf, the Heckler
              • Jul 2001
              • 1248

              #7
              Originally posted by Target Practice
              You forgot People who beat a dead horse after everything has blown over.
              It would have to be over for that phase.

              I don't think this little tempest in a teapot is over yet.
              Shaun Nelson --- old, fat, slow.... did I mention lazy? I ate all the pies
              I disable .signatures Apparently you do not.

              Comment

              • PBX Ronin 23
                Registered User
                • Jul 2004
                • 518

                #8
                No offense intended to you anyone but couldn't it be readily seen that with AO's policy towards "cursing" with the implementation of filters be seen on a broader plain to include providing free access of the same type of material via a link to another site?

                Do I agree with the linkage? Maybe, maybe not but that doesn't matter. What I see is a Mod interpreting it as problem that needed to be addressed. Perhaps a little clarity on this is in order.

                This is not a judgemental thing on my part. I, on a frequent basis use expletive in my spoken words everyday....unabated. I will not take a universal stand that doing so is a bad thing. But I will take the position though that if you are in someone else's house, that you should abide by the rules in that house. That's neither professing values or morals. It's just basic manners.

                As for beating a dead horse, the problem with what people perceive has a "long simmering" issue would probably been more readily solved with intelligent and mature discourse. Was that adequately done in the past? Perhaps not. Perhaps in the wake of the brouhaha, we can all collectively discuss the issues and formulate an acceptable response to the problem. As always there are choices in life. We can choose to sweep everything under the rug or we can choose to fix the problem in a fair minded manner.

                The choice is ours, as a community, to make. In the end, the loss of some valuable contributing members and Mods on this forum is a loss that doesn't serve the community to its fullest. And this we must all see as the truth.
                /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                PBX Battlezone
                PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                PBX Ballistix Lab
                PBX@NYC Paintball

                Comment

                • Thordic
                  AFTICA
                  • May 2001
                  • 5986

                  #9
                  Originally posted by PBX Ronin 23
                  No offense intended to you anyone but couldn't it be readily seen that with AO's policy towards "cursing" with the implementation of filters be seen on a broader plain to include providing free access of the same type of material via a link to another site?
                  Considering the fact that my forums had been linked for such a long time, and the mods were generally in full knowledge of the existence of my forum, coupled with the fact that it had previously been stated on numerous occassions that events & happenings on other forums that may or may not be related to AO (specifically the Team Black Cell forums) fell outside of the Moderators sphere of influence, I would argue that if anything it could have easily been assumed that any such links were perfectly acceptable.

                  As for your definition of "material", a lot of people seem to believe that pornography is available and openly linked on my forums. This is quite simply not the case. While I do provide a forum for people to link to such resources if they so wish (I do not provide any images / video clips, etc myself), it is approved access only, and anyone who wishes to gain access must be granted access by myself. It is not "freely available", assuming this is one of the types of material to which you are referring.

                  As far as cursing goes, as I said earlier I would have been willing to make some slight modifications to my forums with regards to access, such as putting certain forums under a mask allowing them to be viewed by registered users only. I would have also been willing to include some sort of disclaimer, clearly visible upon signing up to view my forums, that the content to be found within was not related to Automags.org or any of its owners / operators / sponsors in any manner, shape, or form.

                  But as I previously stated, at no time was it presented to me as an issue. Due to prior "rulings" by moderators about off-site content (TBC forums), and the implied consent due to the length of time my sig had been utilized, that the moderators had no issues with me linking my site here on AO.

                  Comment

                  • rkjunior303
                    I need this more than you
                    • May 2003
                    • 4029

                    #10
                    not to mention, that a couple of those mods were in fact contributing members of the thorums well before there were any problems with the signature

                    PBN Feedback AO Feedback eBay Feedback

                    DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS (Rob Kenny and Matt Bradley) LIVE @ www.djinnuendo.com TUES 2/8 - 8 to 10PM

                    Comment

                    • Miscue
                      Super Moderator

                      • Oct 2000
                      • 7105

                      #11
                      To remove links to Thordic.com... we would have to also remove all links to PBNation.com as well as other sites, to maintain consistency. I'm not equating them as equals, but where is the line drawn? Do we disallow yahoo.com as well, because it is a gateway to offensive material?

                      We can't police the Internet. The only sites we can fairly concern ourselves with are those with pornographic materials, which of course are not allowable.
                      Last edited by Miscue; 01-24-2005, 12:37 PM.

                      Comment

                      • PBX Ronin 23
                        Registered User
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 518

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Thordic
                        Considering the fact that my forums had been linked for such a long time, and the mods were generally in full knowledge of the existence of my forum, coupled with the fact that it had previously been stated on numerous occassions that events & happenings on other forums that may or may not be related to AO (specifically the Team Black Cell forums) fell outside of the Moderators sphere of influence, I would argue that if anything it could have easily been assumed that any such links were perfectly acceptable.

                        As for your definition of "material", a lot of people seem to believe that pornography is available and openly linked on my forums. This is quite simply not the case. While I do provide a forum for people to link to such resources if they so wish (I do not provide any images / video clips, etc myself), it is approved access only, and anyone who wishes to gain access must be granted access by myself. It is not "freely available", assuming this is one of the types of material to which you are referring.
                        That's why there needs to be more clarity and a uniform application of existing rules. From my understanding, not everyone may have seen your site until prior to the recent incident. Can non-action be construed as acceptance?....absolutely. Would I have felt the same if I was in your shoes?....perhaps.

                        Originally posted by Thordic
                        As far as cursing goes, as I said earlier I would have been willing to make some slight modifications to my forums with regards to access, such as putting certain forums under a mask allowing them to be viewed by registered users only. I would have also been willing to include some sort of disclaimer, clearly visible upon signing up to view my forums, that the content to be found within was not related to Automags.org or any of its owners / operators / sponsors in any manner, shape, or form.

                        But as I previously stated, at no time was it presented to me as an issue. Due to prior "rulings" by moderators about off-site content (TBC forums), and the implied consent due to the length of time my sig had been utilized, that the moderators had no issues with me linking my site here on AO.
                        I laud you if you have indeed attempted to correct the problem because it was the right thing to do. But what can be deemed as "unacceptble" doesn't just fall within the province of the pornographic. Spoken words that others may be offended by also has to fall within that realm. This in and of itself should be clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt by the framers of the new "clarified" rules.

                        Now, I don't want you to view this discussion as either an admonishment or judgement against you. Personally, I find the stuff that you have on your forums to be entertaining and very AOesque in intellectual content.

                        What is important for everyone to grasp is that if fences are to be mended, the first thing to do is open a channel of communication and have a mature discussion about the issue on hand. Hopefully this thread serves as one.

                        BTW, for my own edification, how did you find out about confidential "rulings" made by Mods when such things are supposed to be made in private?
                        Last edited by PBX Ronin 23; 01-24-2005, 12:45 PM.
                        /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                        PBX Battlezone
                        PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                        PBX Ballistix Lab
                        PBX@NYC Paintball

                        Comment

                        • Thordic
                          AFTICA
                          • May 2001
                          • 5986

                          #13
                          Originally posted by PBX Ronin 23
                          That's why there needs to be more clarity and a uniform application of existing rules. From my understanding, not everyone may have seen your site until prior to the recent incident. Can non-action be construed as acceptance?....absolutely. Would I have felt the same if I was in your shoes?....perhaps.
                          I think inaction is the leading cause of problems in the long run on any moderated internet community. If you are going to have rules, they need to be applied universally and equally. Decisions should be fairly uniform and more objective than subjective.

                          In the short run it may lead to complaints, but in the long run it makes for a healthier community and less drama like we've seen.

                          I laud you if you have indeed attempted to correct the problem because it was the right thing to do.
                          Even after I was banned there was little communication with me. Since I have decided to more-or-less leave AO, and as you can see I have not replaced the link in my sig, I've made no changes. Had I decided to stick around then I would have made changes. But I don't advertise my forums here anymore so I don't see the need. Its not out of spite, just out of laziness and lack-of-purpose.

                          BTW, for my own edification, how did you find out about confidential "rulings" made by Mods when such things are supposed to be made in private?
                          Tunaman told me himself that it had been discussed by the mods when he removed my sig. He said a ruling has been made, or wording to that effect.

                          Comment

                          • PBX Ronin 23
                            Registered User
                            • Jul 2004
                            • 518

                            #14
                            Originally posted by rkjunior303
                            not to mention, that a couple of those mods were in fact contributing members of the thorums well before there were any problems with the signature
                            And this is where the crux of the argument lies. How can one Mod act towards a certain issue when other Mods have implied their complicity and acceptance of an issue by participating in it. I am neither admonishing any action taken by anyone but some clear cut distinction of what is acceptable and what is not must be publicly made and posted for all to see. This definitely is not fair to either Thordic or the Mod in question.

                            Originally posted by Miscue
                            To remove links to Thordic.com... we would have to also remove all links to PBNation.com as well as other sites, to maintain consistency. I'm not equating them as equals, but where is the line drawn? Do we disallow yahoo.com as well, because it is a gateway to offensive material?

                            We can't police the Internet. The only sites we can fairly concern ourselves with are those with pornographic materials, which of course are not allowable.
                            You can draw the line as follows....PBN implements a curse filter, Other may not. PBN, regardless of the intellectual depth of most of their participants do not openly contradict AO's intent to remain PG.

                            No disrespect intended but Mods are not expected to police the internet by any means....just AO. You guys are the Guardians at the gate. You have to be armed with unequivocally clear rules and policies and they should be meted out without prejudice.

                            Banning Knuckleheads, well clearly define what a Knucklehead is and ban-away. I'm with some of the Defectors on this. We have too many non-conforming and non-contributing individuals who troll through our forums and do nothing except degrade the whole community. If they fail to meet the standards that we all should call for, then with a swift hand they must be dealt with.

                            Do some of what I'm espousing sound a little too Draconian? Well perhaps at this point that is what is indeed needed.
                            /s/ Mel C. Maravilla
                            PBX Battlezone
                            PBX Paintball Station Inc.
                            PBX Ballistix Lab
                            PBX@NYC Paintball

                            Comment

                            • Lohman446
                              Useful posts: 7
                              • Jun 2003
                              • 9315

                              #15
                              I think, the name AO mod team, shared by the moderators, may solve a lot of the issues. Let the moderators do what they need to do under that name, discuss it privately, and if they need to go back and undo something after a private discussion they can - and then only the moderators know which one screwed up. Mistakes happen, it becomes a problem when one cannot live down there mistakes... this will allow action, and retraction if needed, wtihout making any individual look bad if mistaken.
                              "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess

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