We Have A Pope!

[MedicDVG]

While it is may be true that JPII made an ex cathedra statement disallowing any women from becoming ordianed clergy, Pope Bennedict would have them out of the church hierarchy completely. No more girl alter servers, no more women communion distributors, no more women reading the scriptures at mass, no more women cantors.

That my friend is 17th century thinking -- women = evil.. give me a break.

Why am I so vehement about this. Frankly its my mother's fault. My mother who for all her adult life has been a Catholic adult educator. She had led classes for bringing non-catholic adults into the Catholic church, held seminars for newly married couples that teaches the catholic tradition of family (tell me how a celibate can talk of the wedding bed and its importance in a healthy relationship) and has served as director of religieous education at over 14 parishes that we belonged to over the years (Army family -- what can I say, we moved a LOT). My mother has three masters degrees in catholic adult eductaion, catholic history, and in theology. But our new pope would treat her as some sort of oddity such as a bycycle riding trained bear -- an abboration to the norm.

That offends me. I have seen her deep faith time and time again. Our new pope would have her reciting novena and staying out of "men's business."

I still contend that an informed faith questions, seeks, and develops opionins based on teaching and experience. I have never been a fan of "pray, pay, and obey." I will not take my relationship with God at face value. I will examine it, learn from it, make mistakes, and grow with it. I will NOT have someone tell me "its this way or the highway" for that is arrogant, selfish, and close minded. That is not faith to me, but demagoguery.

[j.storm]

The popes position is biblical. Paul said that women should remain silent. Some people take the bible literally....probably including this new Pope.
BUT, I personally believe that was Paul's OPINION and not a direct command from God. Some people take things differant than others.
...plus, it's not like the pope's gonna come to any country and fire all the women teachers, etc.

[Jakedubbleya]

While it is may be true that JPII made an ex cathedra statement disallowing any women from becoming ordianed clergy, Pope Bennedict would have them out of the church hierarchy completely. No more girl alter servers, no more women communion distributors, no more women reading the scriptures at mass, no more women cantors.

That my friend is 17th century thinking -- women = evil.. give me a break.

Why am I so vehement about this. Frankly its my mother's fault. My mother who for all her adult life has been a Catholic adult educator. She had led classes for bringing non-catholic adults into the Catholic church, held seminars for newly married couples that teaches the catholic tradition of family (tell me how a celibate can talk of the wedding bed and its importance in a healthy relationship) and has served as director of religieous education at over 14 parishes that we belonged to over the years (Army family -- what can I say, we moved a LOT). My mother has three masters degrees in catholic adult eductaion, catholic history, and in theology. But our new pope would treat her as some sort of oddity such as a bycycle riding trained bear -- an abboration to the norm.

That offends me. I have seen her deep faith time and time again. Our new pope would have her reciting novena and staying out of "men's business."

I still contend that an informed faith questions, seeks, and develops opionins based on teaching and experience. I have never been a fan of "pray, pay, and obey." I will not take my relationship with God at face value. I will examine it, learn from it, make mistakes, and grow with it. I will NOT have someone tell me "its this way or the highway" for that is arrogant, selfish, and close minded. That is not faith to me, but demagoguery.

The popes position is biblical. Paul said that women should remain silent. Some people take the bible literally....probably including this new Pope.
BUT, I personally believe that was Paul's OPINION and not a direct command from God. Some people take things differant than others.
...plus, it's not like the pope's gonna come to any country and fire all the women teachers, etc.

The church put the bible together, id assume they have a relatively good idea of what to take literally and what not to, especially a former head of doctrine. There are many reasons (as stated above) that the pope may choose to debunk women from church teaching roles.

[tropical_fishy]

the church has an entirely different view of feminism obviously. The woman is subordinate to the man and the man is all sacrificing to the woman, much like the relationship with christ and the catholic church.

Okay, let's pretend for a minute that you're right. remember now, we're just pretending. Do we understand the meaning of "subordinate"? In case we don't: "Belonging to a lower or inferior class or rank; secondary, subject to the authority or control of another." Now pardon me, but I don't belong to any man. Ever.

Mary was the most perfect human ever born next to christ, how could they possibly consider women to be inferior? Different but equal, thats the consensus.

You know, we tried that seperate but equal thing. You know where it got us? Nowhere. If the Catholic Church dies out, it will be because the women of all the developing countries it is so dominant in get sick of being property for their husbands.

The Bible says a lot of ridiculous things:

Leviticus 25:44 Says quite clearly that we may possess slaves.
Exodus 21:7 allows you to sell your daughter into slavery.
Exodus 35:2 tells us to kill people who work on the Sabbath.
Leviticus 11:10 forbids you to ingest shellfish. God will smite you for those clams.
Leviticus 20:14 commands you to kill your family for inter-familial affairs.


So... what's "good" tradition what's "bad" tradition? When it serves the white males best, I suppose.

"He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord."

--Deuteronomy 23:1

Sorry honey. Please stay out.

[Jakedubbleya]

Youre entitled to disagree with the church but i wish you would not make it my fault, ive disclaimed in all my posts that these views are not necessarily mine.

1. "subject to the authority or control of another", thats the one.

2. Generalizations of out of context old testament passages doesnt prove anything, for one because well, it doesnt even say much of anything, since the sources i used were the founding fathers of the church, and not from the old testament. and secondly, christ did away with old testament.

3. The african jews who founded these traditions werent exactly your typical white male.

[j.storm]

1: Generalizations of out of context old testament passages doesnt prove anything

2: and secondly, christ did away with old testament.

3: The african jews who founded these traditions werent exactly your typical white male.

1: Good point
2: No, not really. He fulfilled it and released man from the law (but never made some of the law void, ei: 10 commandments)
3: Yup. Try getting that point across to the world though. THEN you will be the man

[tropical_fishy]

Actually, passages from the Old Testament have everything to do with the argument. Leviticus states how you must run your life, as a good Christian. Now, we either accept these passages as infallable, or we do not.

You've posted twice-- once saying that since the Church leaders put the Bible together it's what's best for the people. Now, when I show you the parts that people no longer follow, they're "out of context" and not relevant. Pick a position.

I realize that the leadership of the Church has changed, but I think the Church has warped the teachings in the Bible to fit its own agenda. In this case, Catholicism benifits from restricting women from power positions, under the guise of "oh, well, it's tradition." There are a great many traditions in Catholicism that have been lost over time, and a great many that have been gained (the Christmas tree, for example, is a pagan thing). The papacy decideds what will be lost and what will be gained, and I think that their actions against women in the Church is a deliberate and calculated motion.

[j.storm]

The entire Old Testiment is a moral tail, for the most part. It's the harmony of God, if you will. Many things in the OT, taken contextually where valid for those time periods, but were invalidated by the New Testiment (or more preciselly Jesus). Some thing's that come to mind are the eating of meat, then pork...etc....
But the OT is split into two columns: Law and 'faith'
Law was put into effect to control the jews as a kind of "you asked for it" type thing.
Faith was always present as the harmony and true plan of God. Or in other words: "here's the law. Keep it and come to heaven. Break it just once and prepare for a serious heat stroke"

The whole point of the NT was Jesus saying: "your free from the Law. Now faith takes precidence."

But again, I think that somethings in the NT...that where not stated in the gospels but were in Paul's letters, are holdovers from the laws. I may be wrong on that one, but I don't think so. I would lump that in with the one where guys have to worship without a hat, and women have to wear one.

The case can be rested with this: Jesus in the melodic line of the OT harmony and the fulfillment of the law. Thusly, since he was the world's first women's right advocate (yeah, I said that) I think we can assume that he never meant for women to be second class citizens.

and there is a biblical case for showing that Paul was still dealing personally with the same traditions he was trying to condemn or taut...whichever the case may be.


All my opinion mind you. If i'm wrong, i'm wrong. (that last post may have not been for me anyway)

[j.storm]

I realize that the leadership of the Church has changed, but I think the Church has warped the teachings in the Bible to fit its own agenda. In this case, Catholicism benifits from restricting women from power positions, under the guise of "oh, well, it's tradition."

Good point, although I think every type of church warps something or other to fit their own ideas.
....don't know how the RCC would benifit by keeping women down though. Maybe just to keep a good 'ol boys club, but who really knows.....

[93civiccpe]

You sir do not represent Catholics. You cannot speak for all of us.

Authentic veiwpoint? Only the Pope has the power to be the final say on the interpretation of the Bible. Each Pope can have different interpretations. To say that there is an authentic viewpoint is absurd and ignorant.

Can someone, and I mean anyone tell me where in the Bible it say this about the pope having the final say on the interpretation of the Bible? Actually, can anyone even show me where in the Bible it says we need a Pope?? There is only one man ever to be exalted above all other men and that's Jesus.


On another note, God has used a lot of great women in His ministry. The Bible does call for the man to be the head of the household and head of the church as it is his responsibility. But in no way does God say women should not be involved or that women are inferior. There are so many strong women in the Bible that God builds up, not condemns. I think it is appropriate that God chose a rib bone from Adam to make Eve. God didn't take a bone from the skeleton as if to say women were above men, and he didn't take one from his feet as if to say women were to be below men. He took the rib bone.. a bone that is at his side, close to his heart, and under the protection of his arm. God created woman as a helpmate for man. The sexist idea that women are supposed to be silent is garbage. God calls all of us to spread the gospel to every living creature.

Too many people get carried away with religion. Religions are based on the customs of man. The Bible never says that we need a Pope. Didn't Christ die so that we could all come to Him directly and speak to Him?? When Christ died the veil was broken.. no longer did we need a preist to intercede for us, but we can go to Christ ourselves.

I would be very cautious about quoting Bible verses in here and taking different translations to get your point across. The Bible says Satan knows the verses very well himself, as he twists them and perverts them to mislead. You need to read those verses in context to get the meaning of them.

I enjoy seeing how many young people are this strong in their faith. I do pray that each and every one of you searches out what you believe. I personally do not consider myself religious, because that refers to customs of man, and I tell people this. I believe it is way more important to have a relationship with God than to follow a set of rules set forth by man.

[j.storm]

Can someone, and I mean anyone tell me where in the Bible it say this about the pope having the final say on the interpretation of the Bible? Actually, can anyone even show me where in the Bible it says we need a Pope?? There is only one man ever to be exalted above all other men and that's Jesus.


On another note, God has used a lot of great women in His ministry. The Bible does call for the man to be the head of the household and head of the church as it is his responsibility. But in no way does God say women should not be involved or that women are inferior. There are so many strong women in the Bible that God builds up, not condemns. I think it is appropriate that God chose a rib bone from Adam to make Eve. God didn't take a bone from the skeleton as if to say women were above men, and he didn't take one from his feet as if to say women were to be below men. He took the rib bone.. a bone that is at his side, close to his heart, and under the protection of his arm. God created woman as a helpmate for man. The sexist idea that women are supposed to be silent is garbage. God calls all of us to spread the gospel to every living creature.

Too many people get carried away with religion. Religions are based on the customs of man. The Bible never says that we need a Pope. Didn't Christ die so that we could all come to Him directly and speak to Him?? When Christ died the veil was broken.. no longer did we need a preist to intercede for us, but we can go to Christ ourselves.

I would be very cautious about quoting Bible verses in here and taking different translations to get your point across. The Bible says Satan knows the verses very well himself, as he twists them and perverts them to mislead. You need to read those verses in context to get the meaning of them.

I enjoy seeing how many young people are this strong in their faith. I do pray that each and every one of you searches out what you believe. I personally do not consider myself religious, because that refers to customs of man, and I tell people this. I believe it is way more important to have a relationship with God than to follow a set of rules set forth by man.

Hmmm.....what's that word?

oh yeah. AMEN!

[Lohman446]

Actually, passages from the Old Testament have everything to do with the argument. Leviticus states how you must run your life, as a good Christian. Now, we either accept these passages as infallable, or we do not.

Passages in Leviticus call for the public stoning of people who plant more than one crop in the same field - where clothing made of a blend of materials, and many other things. Funny when people state "Leviticus says" they just leave out the fundamental "laws" that are... umm less than acceptable in today's society.

[93civiccpe]

Passages in Leviticus call for the public stoning of people who plant more than one crop in the same field - where clothing made of a blend of materials, and many other things. Funny when people state "Leviticus says" they just leave out the fundamental "laws" that are... umm less than acceptable in today's society.

Yes,
And if your children backtalk you then you have the right to stone them as well. Kids could not disrespect their parents. Please Please Please read the context. This is stating Jewish laws/customs at the time. Nowhere in it does it say that is God's law. God gives us His desires of how we should live according to the Ten Commandments. And they were to show us that we need a Saviour because we are all guilty of all of them. It says in the Bible that if you have broken one of them you have broken all of them. Now I know right now you are saying "I've never murdered"... "I've never slept with anyone else's wife"... but know this, the Bible says if you hate someone then it is the same as committing murder in your mind. It also says that if you lust after a woman you have committed adultery in your heart with the impure thoughts. None of us are innocent... no not one. Jesus was the only perfect person to walk the face of the earth, and He was the ultimate sacrifice. That is the most important thing to know and believe. Too may people get caught up with the bickerings of man's customs which we've incorporated with the Bible to form religions. That breakup of God's family is not what He desires.. He desires for us all to be able to come to Him and worship Him together.

Another thing. The Bible/rules do not change with the time. Just because this generation thinks that pre-marital sex is okay, GOD DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND ON THIS. A sin is still a sin. He still sees it as a sin. The Bible says that when two get married and come together God no longer sees them as 2 people.. but as one. He sees that married couple as one complete unit. No longer is the man and woman having to lean on God to provide what they don't have, but now they have each other. Every time you have sex with some stranger I feel that's a piece of your soul you are giving away. It is very clear God's views on sex, every time you see it mentioned in a positive way it is mentioned in the context of marriage. When you see it in negative ways, (Soddam and Gomorrah)sp? and also King David with Bethsheba are good examples, it happens outside the bounds of marriage. If you are wondering God's take on homosexuality, it is a sin. It is very clear. Look at Soddam and Gomorrah, it lists the perversions and sins. Among those are "man sleeping with man and man sleeping with animals". Also, when God created a partner for Adam he chose Eve.. a female. All throughout the Bible it clearly explains that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just because our perverted society can accept this does not mean God does. He sees it as a sin.

I'm not trying to come down or condescend on anyone. I have grown up going to several churches (catholic, assembly of God, baptist)... and I truly came to know a deep relationship with God in College. The church I go to is amazing. The pastor goes through the Bible chapter by chapter, verse by verse. I'm not having the same sermons screamed at me every sunday. Instead I am actually learning all sorts of information and truths that God provided for us in His Word. I pray that all of you have a close relationship with God.

God Bless,
Shaun

PS> I am not trying to put down anyone or flame anyone or anything like that. I will answer any questions that anyone has, either in here or in a pm.

[Lohman446]

Actually, passages from the Old Testament have everything to do with the argument. Leviticus states how you must run your life, as a good Christian. Now, we either accept these passages as infallable, or we do not..

This is stating Jewish laws/customs at the time. Nowhere in it does it say that is God's law

You see why it doesn't add up, yes I realize they are not both your quotes

[Lohman446]

It is very clear God's views on sex, every time you see it mentioned in a positive way it is mentioned in the context of marriage. When you see it in negative ways, (Soddam and Gomorrah)sp?

In Soddam and Gomorrah does not Levi (??) offer his virgin daughters to the crowd to have there way with, who still demand the three male strangers (??) which is what earns the wrath of God?

PS: I have no problems running this debate, as long as everyone stays civil... maybe we will be allowed leniency if we are mature enough about it.