I guess Ford really screwed up.

[billybob_81067]

Median price for a 1 family house here in Hawaii is about $489,000. I bet its a bit less than that where you live. If you can manage owning a modest house on less than 65k a year here --congratulations!, you must be single with no kids and subsisting on sunflower seeds and ice cubes.

Heck, I only make 18K a year and get by pretty well if I say so myself. My wife, kids and I are going on a vacation to Cali next month, and I usually have a couple grand in spending money each year after all the bills, cost of food, and essentials.

I have a few things going for me though, my parents pay my auto insurance, cell phone bill, and we get all the beef we want for free. Also we're living in one of my Uncle's houses so there's no rent, but I do have to pay for all the utilities etc. I eat some ramen and PB&J once in awhile, but that's a hell of a lot better than nothing...

Granted this isn't Hawaii either!

[Lohman446]

I hope you felt similiar outrage at companies like Enron and Worldcomm, for all but ruining the lives of 7000 of its workers all in the name of corporate greed, as you do for Ford AUW, but somehow I doubt it.

The purpose of a company is to offer a product or a service to the public at a reasonable price that allows a reasonable living for its workers and management, as well as a reasonable return for its investors. It is important that each part of that team makes a reasonable living in a way that is competetive to the industry (world) and sustainable over the course of time.

I have a problem with any part of that that allows greed to make it non competetive, thus non sustainable. Nice try on the spin though.

If the unions do not change there ways, rather than American's working for a reasonable wage, Indians and Chinese will be working for much less. The American worker has proven in the past to be an assett to the process, however the unions at this point seem to be pricing there workers out of a job.

There is a major difference between a group of workers organizing together for there collective benefit and a legally protected racket that requires everyone working in a certain place to join and abide as a member of the union. When an employer cannot hire someone into there own shop unless that person is "approved" (ie a member of) by the union at the unions wages and requirements, despite the willingness of both the new employee and the employer, there is a problem.

[Muzikman]

[Lohman446]

Theres two ways of looking at this. One starts with an assessment of the value of what you are doing in a world market, the economy as it stands, and your skill set.

The other starts with the words "I deserve..." You deserve what your skill set, your location, and your willingness to work will bring you in a competetive environment. I would have less of a problem with unions if they did not shut down plants to any non-union workers.

[AgentSmith]

I work at a ford plant and in the past have been nonunion , union supervision and Soldier, so I think I'm pretty unbiased.

I am a UAW electrician. If I do a bad job, don't show up for work, etc, my boss can create a paper trail and fire me. If he does his job I'll be gone faster than I can spit.
If union workers run rampant, it's because they're allowed to by half steppers who can't be bothered to earn their money. People blaming the worker who tightens the lug nuts on the wheels of cars as they pass for the fact that an emergency brake handle was poorly designed and made from shoddy materials makes me sad.
I watched a supervisor overrule the arguments of six different tradesmen to destroy a fixture 200,000 parts too early. That one example cost ford about 4 mill in lost time, effort and redone work. He was subsequently promoted by his boss...

I can affect the area I work, a production worker can effect his line, a single supervisor can start a chain reaction that echos through the whole company.

That being said this freedom from repercussions has made many of my coworkers not workers at all, as power inevitably corrupts.

I have said before that corporate responsibility is constructed from the individual responsibility of it's employees, so if ford goes down it will have deserved it.



Rob

[wimag]

How long have you been a giant of industry? You got the sarcasm down.

it wasnt meant as an insult.

20 years in a union facility. Wish i was a giant of industry though, then maybe i could afford those 489,000 dollar house you talk about. But i would need a pay increase. Got any jobs at your local ?
See, now that is sarcasm. chill out

[lather]

it wasnt meant as an insult.

20 years in a union facility. Wish i was a giant of industry though, then maybe i could afford those 489,000 dollar house you talk about. But i would need a pay increase. Got any jobs at your local ?
See, now that is sarcasm. chill out

My apologies then sometimes its hard to detect sincerity from sarcasm.

[lather]

I work at a ford plant and in the past have been nonunion , union supervision and Soldier, so I think I'm pretty unbiased.

I am a UAW electrician. If I do a bad job, don't show up for work, etc, my boss can create a paper trail and fire me. If he does his job I'll be gone faster than I can spit.
If union workers run rampant, it's because they're allowed to by half steppers who can't be bothered to earn their money. People blaming the worker who tightens the lug nuts on the wheels of cars as they pass for the fact that an emergency brake handle was poorly designed and made from shoddy materials makes me sad.
I watched a supervisor overrule the arguments of six different tradesmen to destroy a fixture 200,000 parts too early. That one example cost ford about 4 mill in lost time, effort and redone work. He was subsequently promoted by his boss...

I can affect the area I work, a production worker can effect his line, a single supervisor can start a chain reaction that echos through the whole company.

That being said this freedom from repercussions has made many of my coworkers not workers at all, as power inevitably corrupts.

I have said before that corporate responsibility is constructed from the individual responsibility of it's employees, so if ford goes down it will have deserved it.



Rob

As a IBEW power plant operator im pretty much in the same situation, If I dont show up for work or trip a unit, I expect at least a suspension, or more than likely, fired.
If I knowingly allow plant cooling water to be discharged into the ocean that does not meet Federal and State pollution control levels, being fired will be the least of my worries as I will wind up with criminal charges and possibly prison time. My union wont lift a finger to protect me, (to be fair thats okay I dont expect the union to cover up my negligence).

I think those stories of people sleeping for 5 hours a day has gone the way of the dinosaur, Good management doesnt allow this to happen at all. Ive never seen anyone so much as read a newspaper at work.

[lather]

The purpose of a company is to offer a product or a service to the public at a reasonable price that allows a reasonable living for its workers and management, as well as a reasonable return for its investors. It is important that each part of that team makes a reasonable living in a way that is competetive to the industry (world) and sustainable over the course of time.

I have a problem with any part of that that allows greed to make it non competetive, thus non sustainable. Nice try on the spin though.

If the unions do not change there ways, rather than American's working for a reasonable wage, Indians and Chinese will be working for much less. The American worker has proven in the past to be an assett to the process, however the unions at this point seem to be pricing there workers out of a job.

There is a major difference between a group of workers organizing together for there collective benefit and a legally protected racket that requires everyone working in a certain place to join and abide as a member of the union. When an employer cannot hire someone into there own shop unless that person is "approved" (ie a member of) by the union at the unions wages and requirements, despite the willingness of both the new employee and the employer, there is a problem.

Ahh unions have been changing their ways for the last 30 years or so, those days are long past.

I understand what your saying, but closed shops are becoming much rarer. Where I work all our subcontractors are non-union. I was in the Teamsters working for the railroad some years ago and the company also had non union subcontractors.

Here is a thought--When a new contract is negotiated between the company and a union, why would the company agree to terms it could not possibly afford if it was in such financial trouble? If they agree to terms they cannot afford then managment is grossly inept and the company is bound for failure anyways-- union or not. Does it also make sense that a union would knowlingly attempt to bankrupt a company, thus losing it's union membership?

The easy way out is for management to blame the union for any financial problems that a company has. The company's spokespeople are management, they are not ever going to blame themselves, its as simple as that.

Yes, there is some rediculously powerful unions out there, Longshoremen for example, pretty much have the Hawaiian Islands by the throat. But nowadays, for the vast majority of unions, that kind of power is very very rare.

[Lohman446]

Ahh unions have been changing their ways for the last 30 years or so, those days are long past.

I understand what your saying, but closed shops are becoming much rarer. Where I work all our subcontractors are non-union. I was in the Teamsters working for the railroad some years ago and the company also had non union subcontractors.

Here is a thought--When a new contract is negotiated between the company and a union, why would the company agree to terms it could not possibly afford if it was in such financial trouble? If they agree to terms they cannot afford then managment is grossly inept and the company is bound for failure anyways-- union or not. Does it also make sense that a union would knowlingly attempt to bankrupt a company, thus losing it's union membership?

The easy way out is for management to blame the union for any financial problems that a company has. The company's spokespeople are management, they are not ever going to blame themselves, its as simple as that.

Yes, there is some rediculously powerful unions out there, Longshoremen for example, pretty much have the Hawaiian Islands by the throat. But nowadays, for the vast majority of unions, that kind of power is very very rare.

I don't blame the unions solely for the position of the American auto industry, but there is no doubt they had a healthy hand in getting it to where it is.

[hardr0ck68]

I know what you mean...like the Big Farming industry! Those rich farmers getting apid not to grow crops....many of our Hollywood and media elitist are among them.

[Recon by Fire]

Now not to say all farmers are easy off, but hey i was talking about loggers when you changed topic. Im also not a fan of "media elitist," but you wont beleive me saying that cause you think i live by party lines and not my own wit.

Canging topics? You are talking logging in a Ford thread I didn't really mean anything political by "media elistest" other than there are a lot of rich snobs in the media that do own farms that produce nothing and still collect their farming subsidies despite receiving millions of income from their non-farmimg profession.

[hardr0ck68]

Canging topics? You are talking logging in a Ford thread I didn't really mean anything political by "media elistest" other than there are a lot of rich snobs in the media that do own farms that produce nothing and still collect their farming subsidies despite receiving millions of income from their non-farmimg profession.

Hurm, i wonder how much Ted Turner collects....

As for the logging comment its part of my platform, as it is currently bad press to take bribes from Native American casinos i need some source of illicet income!

The greater point of my comment is that somehow everything "liberal" seems to come down to screwing the honest hardworking people of this country, and thats the biggest lie ever. I work hard at everything i do, on a factory line for Sentry safe, in a School with my Edu Degree, on my old mans 1/2 mile of woods/qusie-farm, and hopefully soon in the Army. So i would like to think of myself as able to think as an honest hard working American who has never felt slighted by Unions or their roll in our society.

Some how they get blamed for everything. Even when around here they keep construction workers from being replaced by illegal immagrants, Teachers from losing control of their classrooms to politicians, and force companys to pay for the education of workers it lays off inorder to move production to mexico.

Even you said that greed is a "human flaw" found everywhere; in the age of Enron, Worldcom and so on is it to hard to immagin that corparate greed is alive and well? Do you see no use for a check on this greed? If we balance the greed of the workers aginst the greed of the corporation would we not be able to reach a happy medium?

The amusing thing is that once men argued that balancing this human flaw in such a manner would allow people to govern themselves.



sry for the spelling errors

[Recon by Fire]

You can no more balance or manage greed any more than you can lust, envy, anger, etc... Unless we exterminate every homosapien on the face of the Earth.


Liberals (and consevatives) get blammed for screwing everything up. But "they" are not usually you or I. Those are our extreme fringe elements and not to far and wide everyday people.

[TheAngryDrunkenRussian]

Sry getting into the thread a little late but Ford and Dodge corner the market on work type trucks. Ford's 450 and 550 are the best from experience. I'm a driver for a landscape company.

First off we have are 450 its a 94 stick with a 7.3 in it for some reason with all the abuse that this thing goes through from us I am surprised that we haven't destroyed it yet. The only thing that did "break" on it was a pin that froze in the PTO dump box. Well it ain't worth repairing just for one reason the bill is higher than cost of truck. This thing rocks in the snow for a 2wd we put a 9.5 fisher on the front that can move a ton of snow and a V-box salter in the rearI can clear a entire acount about 25,000 square feet of parking lot/ loading docks in roughly 45min to a 1 hr.

Second up is the 99 550 like a 450 but beef up this is truck is our heavy hauler this thing hooks up to a 32ft long GPW of 12,000 Trailer. I've put a Toro 580-D (16 foot cut path about 3000 lbs)and a New Hollond 865 skid loader on this trailer and still towed it around like a toy. In winter it gets a 10 ft fisher on it, If you want to throw snow sweet mama!!!!! bury cars 10pts. lol

The third we have is a 350 its a srapy rig so I don't drive this one cause I don't have the stupid license to do so. but just from plowing never get a blizzard plow for it.

Another question who builds the engine for a oshkosh MTBR (i Think) 5-ton?