If you could change the world?

[geekwarrior]

what? wars have been fought for even trivial matters regarding religion. wars have been fought for other matters regarding religion. even in wars for economics, money or power, religion is used as a justification and incentive.

absoulutely. It was done in the name of religion, but doesnt always mean that it was done in accordance with(because religion told tham too).

also note that alot of good has been done in the name of religion. Billions of dollars and aide given to needing people. paintball is a safe sport, until some idiot starts doing drive bys. does that make the entire sport bad. Most religions teach love and kindness, respect for authority, and peace. people (not saying you) talk about tolerance and freedom of speech and then in the next breath say that religion shouldnt be tolerated and you can't talk about God.

[geekwarrior]

if you cant answer that question yourself, maybe you do need religion to keep you in line.

I see you chose the easy way out....

[SCpoloRicker]

To answer the "why should I bother?" question; my answer would be because you believe it's the right thing to do.

I'm a secular humanist. I try and do good in this life, not with the expectation of reward, nor the fear of reprisal.

Moral behavior solely as a means of avoiding punishment from a god that may or may not exist is child-like behavior.

[SCpoloRicker]

I see you chose the easy way out....

You mean the logical conclusion to draw from statements made by you and Boski?

[Boski51]

To answer the "why should I bother?" question; my answer would be because you believe it's the right thing to do.

I'm a secular humanist. I try and do good in this life, not with the expectation of reward, nor the fear of reprisal.

Moral behavior solely as a means of avoiding punishment from a god that may or may not exist is child-like behavior.

Why would you want to "do good" in life. By what measure do you define "good"? What reward are you trying to earn by being "good"?

Why would you think your viewpoint is any more logical than mine?

[geekwarrior]

To answer the "why should I bother?" question; my answer would be because you believe it's the right thing to do.

I'm a secular humanist. I try and do good in this life, not with the expectation of reward, nor the fear of reprisal.

But why do you believe its the right thing to do? believe according to what? And "good" is a relative term.

My answer would be because of love for others. I love my kids, family and friends and show respect to them because of it, and want them to have a good life, so I do good by them. Also because of the golden rule.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is there is scorn for people who believe in religion. Why? because it can't be proven by science. Yet your feelings of what is right and wrong and what is good can't be proven by science either. Some find the teachings of religion as a moral compass, you rely on what you feel is right. Does science tell you that love and respect trumps self gratification? No.

Moral behavior solely as a means of avoiding punishment from a god that may or may not exist is child-like behavior.

Child like behavior. if it was mere childhood behavior than there would be no need for laws. There are laws because there is good and evil in this world. Religion doesn't teach that you should do good BECAUSE you will be punished if you don't, it teaches you to do good out of love your fellow man. It doesn't teach (at least Christianity) that you have to be perfect. It says do good, show love, be sorry for wrong you do do, and believe. I'm pretty sure you're moral compass says all the same things except for the last "believe part".


sorry if this doesnt all make sense(relatively speaking), Im kinda rambling

[don miguel]

make LOVE not WAR!

[edweird]

im home briefly from work cause I forgot something...

SCpoloRicker and slade:

thanks for fighting the good fight while I was sweating with the fatties at unit PT

as for the rest of you animals:

If you cannot understand what it means to do the right thing for the greater good, then you are obviously best served by the fear of the imaginary. The rest of us dont need the carrot and stick routine to make headway and do the right thing day in and out.

/off to go play with more conventional airmunitions
//I will check on this later(if the zealots dont screw it up for us) when I get a break at work; hopefully

[geekwarrior]

im home briefly from work cause I forgot something...

SCpoloRicker and slade:

thanks for fighting the good fight while I was sweating with the fatties at unit PT

as for the rest of you animals:

If you cannot understand what it means to do the right thing for the greater good, then you are obviously best served by the fear of the imaginary. The rest of us dont need the carrot and stick routine to make headway and do the right thing day in and out.

/off to go play with more conventional airmunitions
//I will check on this later(if the zealots dont screw it up for us) when I get a break at work; hopefully

i was trying to keep this somewhat philosophical and was just trying to understand your views. So far you implied that I am a zealot, a animal, childlike among other things, so I'm done with this discussion. I can see your good for other doesn't go very far.

[bentothejam1n]

absoulutely. It was done in the name of religion, but doesnt always mean that it was done in accordance with(because religion told tham too).

also note that alot of good has been done in the name of religion. Billions of dollars and aide given to needing people. paintball is a safe sport, until some idiot starts doing drive bys. does that make the entire sport bad. Most religions teach love and kindness, respect for authority, and peace. people (not saying you) talk about tolerance and freedom of speech and then in the next breath say that religion shouldnt be tolerated and you can't talk about God.

my thoughts exactly

[edweird]

i was trying to keep this somewhat philosophical and was just trying to understand your views. So far you implied that I am a zealot, a animal, childlike among other things, so I'm done with this discussion. I can see your good for other doesn't go very far.

you have been doing a good job so far, sorry I left you off the list of kudos... the comment wasnt bashing you, I have an insanly limited time to get back accross town and felt I needed to chime in again. /overlooked +1 Keep up the philosophical side, im digging the discussion(although I do have to get back to work and wont get to read it for some time)


as for the cuss filter circumventer, that is another issue.

[SCpoloRicker]

Why would you want to "do good" in life. By what measure do you define "good"? What reward are you trying to earn by being "good"?

Why would you think your viewpoint is any more logical than mine?

You're right, it's grey, not black/white. Personally, I'm not trying to earn any rewards. Given the choice, I simply choose to act in what I consider to be the best way possible given the situation.

And, I don't think my viewpoint is more logical than yours. Everyone has to find a way to make decisions. I simply don't factor in / worry about any theological implications.

My answer would be because of love for others. I love my kids, family and friends and show respect to them because of it, and want them to have a good life, so I do good by them. Also because of the golden rule.

That's a perfectly good reason. How is faith required to choose these values? If you didn't have faith, wouldn't the same things be important?

*aside* This has been fairly civil, which is cool. I will try and keep it that way on my end.

/edit: my typing is horrific, as I'm trying to get out of here

[tropical_fishy]

There is nothing wrong with doing the right thing. There is also nothing wrong with having faith. I think the issue is when we use faith as a reason to do something, rather than doing the right thing because it is the correct thing to do in the situation. If we allow faith to rule our lives (rather than enhance or guide), then we become, in the Hobbesian sense, "wicked" men. Our actions are not good for the sake of being good, but rather out of fear of the reprecussions of not doing "good." I've never put much stock in Kant, but he says something similar: if your intentions aren't pure, then your actions aren't truly good.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

so If you could go back in time to one event within your life time where you could make a differnce where would you go?

In our own lifetimes? That's pretty restrictive.

I'd go back and stop Bill Clinton from getting elected in 92. So he couldn't sell us all out to the Chinese.

[Boski51]

You're right, it's grey, not black/white. Personally, I'm not trying to earn any rewards. Given the choice, I simply choose to act in what I consider to be the best way possible given the situation.

And, I don't think my viewpoint is more logical than yours. Everyone has to find a way to make decisions. I simply don't factor in / worry about any theological implications.



That's a perfectly good reason. How is faith required to choose these values? If you didn't have faith, wouldn't the same things be important?

*aside* This has been fairly civil, which is cool. I will try and keep it that way on my end.

/edit: my typing is horrific, as I'm trying to get out of here

The values that you are defining as "good" are a result of the Jewish and Chrisitian faiths. Without those faiths you would not have those values as they are now defined.

The ten commandments are the basis for so much of American law and moral culture that most don't even see that connection. They are so much a part of your life and what you define as good, without them and you loose the basis of "good moral behaviour".

You don't need to be Jewish or Chrisitian to have those as a moral compass, but that compass is made by those faiths.