Va Tech shootings

[kosmo]

When Christians were first fed to lions in the arenas of Rome, do you think they fought back against them or committed their souls to the Lord in prayer and accepted the fate He handed them? How is praying, giving up?

Praying for a magic blanket to save you isnt anything like accepting your fate. Praying for a magic blanket is what you do when you cant face reality, accepting your fate is facing reality.

So, you think this kid was just a publicity whore? Just wanted a "made for tv" ending so he could show off when all was said and done?

That is completely irrelevant to everything being discussed. Youre just trying to make us seem inhuman instead of logical.

Yes, you choose to stand and fight. Comes natural to you. Your a seasoned vetern who has training in the finer aspects of killing people and blowing things up. You've probably seen death. But make sure you condemn the inaction of the baby faced VT student who, unlike you, doesn't think tactically.

First off, Im not an infantryman. I have hardly recieved any training in how to kill people with the exception of basic rifle marksmanship. Secondly, you need to be careful with how you assume that since youve never dealt with anything violent in your sheltered life that nobody else outside of the military has either.

The Jewish professor, Liviu Librescu, did a very heroic thing. Let's make sure we all condemn those who survived by means of cowardace and talk about what we "would have" done.

Im not condemning them, Im just not feeling sympathetic for them. People die, its part of life. You will invariably see someone die sooner or later, its part of life. Hopefully they will learn to deal with it, emotional wrecks are a waste of space.

[beam]

I do not think emotionally, never have. My mind usually has a much better solution than my heart does....unless I'm giving roses to my wife.

Reports are coming out, that a more than a few students had CCW's, but were not allowed by the college to carry on campus.

Apparently, you do not read very well. He did not pray as a Christian, he prayed for a "magic" blanket to fall around him. If you actually read my post, you would see where I illuminated the difference.

You tell me that I don't read very well and then go and say QUOTE "magic" blanket. I don't see the word magic anywhere in the article. If you are referring to all super natural as "magic" then I can see your point. But I prefer to call super natural, super natural.

As far as whether he is a Christian or not and whether he prayed a "Christian" prayer, that too I could not ascertain from the context of the article. But I suppose you're a "garden" variety Christian and pray for "hedges of protection" instead of those sissy "blankets of protection". Say, when you call in for coverfire, is the carpet bombing they do plush? Shag? Berber? Silly isn't it? Taking one word out of context and determining the authenticity of someone's faith with it. Your words, not mine.

You want to make my words into something they are not. Do not try to think for me.

Listen, communication isn't just saying something and that's the end of it. If I misread into your comment, I think a little more than "Do not try to think for me." is warranted. How about explaining what you meant?

Nothing came natural to me, or Kosmo for that matter. I was raised to be kind to others, and to help anyone in time of need. Far too many people do not get that from their families or peers. When that happens, they tend to only think of themselves. Yes, the Army showed me many ways to kill people, which anyone is able to learn on their own. Please notice I did not "condemn" (your words, not mine) the kids inaction, nor did I call anyone a coward (your words again). I did say he gave up, relying on the actions of others to do for him...that and a magic blankie. I said "made for TV" ending, because when the fictional movie character "believes it enough" it comes true----the end, roll credits.

I agree that you did not condemn anyone, but I was sensing that kind of feeling in some peoples' posts. That's why I said an all inclusive "Let's make sure we all..." Same goes for the coward comment.

As far as saying he gave up...I disagree. If he was you...with your training, personality, thought process, then yes he gave up. If that was you in that situation and that's what you did, then yes, you would have given up. But to take a kid who maybe hasn't even touched a gun, let alone shot one, let alone gotten shot at by one. To take that kid who is in an academic setting, not a war zone, and then in a moment the bullets start flying....to judge his actions as giving up? I disagree. Sometimes, possum is all people have. You're not like that...you're not wired like that. And that's a good thing. The world needs people like you. But that doesn't mean this kid, or any who reacted similarly, gave up.

[beam]

Praying for a magic blanket to save you isnt anything like accepting your fate. Praying for a magic blanket is what you do when you cant face reality, accepting your fate is facing reality.

The student did not pray for a magic blanket. He prayed for a "blanket of protection." It's a phrase that would refer to a super natural covering. A sparing of sorts. He didn't think that Linus up in heaven was going to send his all-powerful binkee down to cover him up.

That is completely irrelevant to everything being discussed. Youre just trying to make us seem inhuman instead of logical.

But you're not being logical. You're expecting a student, in an academic setting to react just like you would have or in a similar fashion. You've got military training. Survival instinct can very easily override tactical thought. Isn't that why military train so much, and why someone who carries a concealed weapon trains so much. To get that muscle memory to take over instead of being caught up in the moment? How much training does it take to get that down? And then to take a student, caught off guard by this whole thing, who could have been a nerd in high school for all we know, and expect him to take a pencil and go for the jugular or something like that...I just don't think that's logical. For some of the students in there, playing dead was the absolute most logical and appropriate thing for them to do.

First off, Im not an infantryman. I have hardly recieved any training in how to kill people with the exception of basic rifle marksmanship. Secondly, you need to be careful with how you assume that since youve never dealt with anything violent in your sheltered life that nobody else outside of the military has either.

Who's making assumptions about who now? Sheltered life? How did you know that I'm really Bobby from the Brady Bunch? Dang it! My cover is blowed. Aw shucks pa....Wally went and took my bicycle down to Ole Man Thomson's for some ice cream.

Im not condemning them, Im just not feeling sympathetic for them. People die, its part of life. You will invariably see someone die sooner or later, its part of life. Hopefully they will learn to deal with it, emotional wrecks are a waste of space.

Calling someone an Idiot is a step over passively not feeling sympathetic. It's an offensive move. If you really just weren't sympathetic, you'd have just kept your fingers off the keyboard for that one.

[edweird]

not to be the total jerkface atheist here... (oh wait I am)

Im sorry, but I feel that taking the time to pray(to/for what does not matter) in the face of adversity instead of taking immediate and decisive action to affect the situation is equilivant to doing nothing at all. I dont recall who said it but i've always prescribed to the notion of "the actions of one will always outpreform the prayers of millions". Isnt it sad when the ones who could of taken action to stop this have been defanged in order to protect the frail mental condition of the easily offended?


Havent we learned anything from the passengers actions of United flight 83? Thank you for being a useless stump when people could of used your help kid, and go somewhere else to find that book/made for tv movie deal.

[wjr]

not to be the total jerkface atheist here... (oh wait I am)

Im sorry, but I feel that taking the time to pray(to/for what does not matter) in the face of adversity instead of taking immediate and decisive action to affect the situation is equilivant to doing nothing at all. I dont recall who said it but i've always prescribed to the notion of "the actions of one will always outpreform the prayers of millions". Isnt it sad when the ones who could of taken action to stop this have been defanged in order to protect the frail mental condition of the easily offended?


Havent we learned anything from the passengers actions of United flight 83? Thank you for being a useless stump when people could of used your help kid, and go somewhere else to find that book/made for tv movie deal.

It's his life. He can do whatever the hell he wants with it.

No reasonable person would expect an unarmed student to try and disarm a guy with a gun.

[Army]

No reasonable person would expect an unarmed student to try and disarm a guy with a gun.

Actually, I would. I expect anyone to defend their own lives to the end. The weapon or intent is irrelevant.

If your life is in grave danger, you have the gut level fear and ability to stay alive.

[edweird]

It's his life. He can do whatever the hell he wants with it.

No reasonable person would expect an unarmed student to try and disarm a guy with a gun.

Sure, just dont go crying to the media looking for a movie deal starring the magical events that you think occured while your closing your eyes and begging the invisible for help.

I expect that everyone has the potential to change the world by virtue of their actions. If they choose to waste their life in a haze of bong smoke, that is their choice as well. But that is still no reason for dearming the mentally prepared and qualified in order to "protect the frail mental condition of the easily offended" as I mentioned before.

[wjr]

Actually, I would. I expect anyone to defend their own lives to the end. The weapon or intent is irrelevant.

If your life is in grave danger, you have the gut level fear and ability to stay alive.

That's what you'd think. That's what I'd like to think I'd do.

But apparently that's not what this kid thought.

[beam]

Actually, I would. I expect anyone to defend their own lives to the end. The weapon or intent is irrelevant.

If your life is in grave danger, you have the gut level fear and ability to stay alive.

You are expecting others to act in a fashion similar to you. That is not logical. If it was some nerd who wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in a fire to pull it off, the smart thing would be to flee or play dead. Some people seriously wouldn't have had the slightest CLUE what to do. They wouldn't be thinking...hmmm...I'll grab the chair and throw it to distract him, while I fashion a rudimentary killing spike out of my number 2 pencil, and then jab it right in is caratoid artery. Most students wouldn't even know how to hit the artery or make a killing blow or any of that, let alone have the presence of mind to do it.

That is a lot about what Phil and others have been saying about those who carry pistols. That they are well trained so that in a suprise event like this, their training will take over. Most students don't train to kill people with number 2 pencils.

Bottom line...depending on the person, the best defense may be to do "nothing" and pray that you don't get shot.

You know the video clip that Phil posted earlier in this thread...the one with the lady talking to Congress? Did you catch what happened to her dad in that? He charged the guy...unarmed. And now he is dead. He took action...tried to stop the killer...tried to defend himself. Who know's why he did it...he did it...and now he is dead. The student here who did "nothing" but prayed is alive. And I feel like some of us are being critical about the way he reached that end.


As far as praying goes...I believe it was General MacArthur who said "there are no atheists in foxholes." It's just me, but I'd give General MacArthur's words some weight...but that's just me.

[beam]

One more thing about all of this. I have a problem when something like this goes down and we as the general public point fingers at law enforcement, administration, survivors, etc.

Let's not forget where ALL the blame deserves to land....

Cho


Damn him for even putting anyone in a position to have to make the sorts of choices we are talking about.

[warbeak2099]

Interesting read:

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html

[kosmo]

You dont seem to comprehend that people all over the country and the world who arent in the military have been through more difficult circumstances and have acted more appropriately than praying for an "invisible blanket of protection" (invisible qualifies in any rational persons mind as magical). My tactical training has nothing to do with my desire to kill people who try to kill me. Either way, youre a fool.

[geekwarrior]

Interesting read:

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/200...esistance.html

good find

[Eagle]

Havent we learned anything from the passengers actions of United flight 83? Thank you for being a useless stump when people could of used your help kid, and go somewhere else to find that book/made for tv movie deal.

Actually, it was Flight 93, and they took time before they acted. In fact, there is one story where a guy was talking on a sky phone with an operator at a switchboard somewhere (the airline I think) and they prayed together. Alot more called family. They didn't take immediate action. I know if I were in a situation such as this, I'd probably take a second or to to pray, then act. Maybe that second or 2 will cost me my life, but at least I will go down with a clean slate.

[warbeak2099]

Actually, it was Flight 93, and they took time before they acted. In fact, there is one story where a guy was talking on a sky phone with an operator at a switchboard somewhere (the airline I think) and they prayed together. Alot more called family. They didn't take immediate action. I know if I were in a situation such as this, I'd probably take a second or to to pray, then act. Maybe that second or 2 will cost me my life, but at least I will go down with a clean slate.

The time those people took on flight 93 was quite long. If they had not taken all that time phoning family and praying, they could have retaken the plane before the hijackers had steered it to a dangerously low altitude.

Being decisive and acting fast FTW.