Va Tech shootings

[chefstevie]

But they exist and that is reality. No amount of capricious daydreaming or rhetoric will make them dissapear. If a badguy has a gun, the best thing to protect yourself with is another gun. Until you go ahead and fix human nature with your witty one liners, that's reality. I prefer to live in it.

thats very true, im jsut trying to get gun enthusiasts head out of the gutter.

i realize i cannot change the existence of guns, however i can preach about how bad they are. :)

maybe we should ban all guns to civilians, that way if anyone tries to buy a gun then they will be arrested, that would fix alot of problems cuz we know 50 cent couldnt survive 8 knife wounds.

/sarcasm?
//maybes?

[warbeak2099]

thats very true, im jsut trying to get gun enthusiasts head out of the gutter.

i realize i cannot change the existence of guns, however i can preach about how bad they are. :)

Your preaching does nothing to make this country safer nor does it fix the reality that there are bad people who have guns and will get guns no matter what. It also does not change the fact that the best way to protect yourself and others from those people is a gun.

[SR_matt]

o my plan, its very simple

no more of this "o its ok youre still a winner" or the "o just pas them along" or the extream o you called him a stupid black man are you racist then a black guy calls some one a "cracka" but its totaly fine cause now a minority is talking about hte majority.

in short for that part make people stop with the "im owed ..."

second start disiplining kids, here o no you cant lay a finger on your own kid because then its abuse. in a lot of europe a kid mis behaves they get a little swat and "dont do that" done with it not this "timmy, timmy, no no timmy, timmy you cant do that, thats not nice"


im probably just ranting and that probably wouldnt have done much in this situation but it would definatly take care of a lot of other daily crap we all deal with.

-matt

[chefstevie]

Your preaching does nothing to make this country safer nor does it fix the reality that there are bad people who have guns and will get guns no matter what. It also does not change the fact that the best way to protect yourself and others from those people is a gun.

an eye for an eye makes the world go blind

[SR_matt]

No one's denying it. But they do exist. Have you a time machine? If not, then please xplain why a properly trained, 21+yo with a CCP would be a threat during a situation in which a psychopath has drawn a gun on students? How could that individual not be an asset to the safety of those students?

its (at least to me) not as much that the person with the legal gun being a threat but what happens when you have multiple people with legal guns and then a chain happens of good people shooting other good peple because they think they are trying to cause harm.

-matt

[wjr]

Way too late, but...

And in response to you, I would say:

Who are you to tell me that I don't need a gun for self defence? Do you know where I live, or how I live?

Tit for Tat my friend.

It is quite simple.

You have fear (of many things, crime, criminals, the unknown, guns, people who know how to use guns, etc), and in your thinking, the only way to control that fear is to control everyone and everything from one central location so that nothing can slip past and make you afraid. You operate on the premise that if you are ever in trouble, the police will protect you, and anything you do yourself can only subvert that effort. You dislike the idea of CCP's because that removes some of your precious centralized control, and that leaves room for your fear. The only way you can control your fear is to force others (ironically, through threat of state sponsored force) to adhere to whatever rules you deem necessary.

Conversely, the right to carry folks realize they cannot control anyone or anything at all, except for themselves and their actions, so they rely upon no one but themselves. We realize that when the fit hits the shan, the only person you can depend on is you. The police will be there hours later to draw the chalk outline and maybe find the person who killed you after the fact (maybe). You could outlaw guns, bats, knives, rocks, stones, and really stiff paper, and criminals would still kill people by whatever means they care to employ. They are CRIMINALS, by the very definition of the term, they don't care about, laws, or rules, or regulations, or filling out the proper forms and waiting for processing and approval. They take and do what they please unless you are prepared to stop them right then and there.

From a standpoint of personal rights, you cannot force your will upon others simply because you feel uncomfortable.

If there is a choice between you being comfortable, and some other person having the ability to defend themselves should they need to, the choice should be for the person wishing to be personally responsible for their own well being, 100% of the time.

It is their right to defend themselves, if you are made uncomfortable by their being armed, you have the right to leave and not be around them. You do NOT have the right to deny them THEIR rights to suit your own wants.

You assume too much Coolhand. I don't care whether you carry a gun or not. But it pisses me off when someone tells me that to be safe I need to carry one.

I would assume that when you say "you do NOT have the right to deny them THEIR rights to suit your own wants" that you're talking about guns on a campus.

I don't think it's denying their rights. The student doesn't have to go there. If it's so important to them, they don't have to go there.

[warbeak2099]

second start disiplining kids, here o no you cant lay a finger on your own kid because then its abuse. in a lot of europe a kid mis behaves they get a little swat and "dont do that" done with it not this "timmy, timmy, no no timmy, timmy you cant do that, thats not nice"

Hold on there professor lol. Givin' the kid a little swap is a big difference between knocking him around. If you are HITTING your child, you've got problems.

Also, your idea of accountability interests me. You mean people should be held responsible for their actions? No wai! Intriguing, I have never heard this idea before!

[warbeak2099]

an eye for an eye makes the world go blind

So I'm just supposed to die because some other guy chose to go on a shooting rampage. Sorry, nah. Again, all you have is baseless, empty rhetoric behind you. Pretty flimsy foundation for an argument.

Sr_matt:

Communication is key. If you are in a situation where a gunman comes into the room and you draw on him, you need to make sure the rest of the room knows you are not on his side. Proper communication can stabilize a very bad situation.

[Ole Unka Phil]

Geeeze.... now I want guns even more reading some of these great theories...

[chefstevie]

So I'm just supposed to die because some other guy chose to go on a shooting rampage. Sorry, nah.

Sr_matt:

Communication is key. If you are in a situation where a gunman comes into the room and you draw on him, you need to make sure the rest of the room knows you are not on his side.

i guess if youre into that whole killing thing...and i seriously doubt that if you were at gunpoint you would be able to whip you pistol out and bust a cap, i mean we cant all be bruce willis' in die hard with a vengeance.

maybe if the police didnt suck *POOF* and the vt administration tried to keep it quiet some people could be saved.

[chefstevie]

Geeeze.... now I want guns even more reading some of these great theories...

yeah id like to kill some people too. good luck on that...

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[warbeak2099]

i guess if youre into that whole killing thing...and i seriously doubt that if you were at gunpoint you would be able to whip you pistol out and bust a cap, i mean we cant all be bruce willis' in die hard with a vengeance.

maybe if the police didnt suck *POOF* and the vt administration tried to keep it quiet some people could be saved.

A trained person shouldn't let it get that far. The second someone comes into the room with a handgun, you need to draw your weapon and instruct them to drop theirs. If they make a menacing gesture and you think they are going to fire, you have every right to take them down. You trying to make anyone who wants to protect themselves and others into killer psychos is just plain ignorant. Just like everything else you've said in this thread.

[slade]

i guess if youre into that whole killing thing...and i seriously doubt that if you were at gunpoint you would be able to whip you pistol out and bust a cap, i mean we cant all be bruce willis' in die hard with a vengeance.

uhh, what? 30 people in a room, one walks in with a gun. if someone in the room has a gun and the killer doesn't know it, i would think that the killer is at the disadvantage.

[CoolHand]

You assume too much Coolhand. I don't care whether you carry a gun or not. But it pisses me off when someone tells me that to be safe I need to carry one.

I would assume that when you say "you do NOT have the right to deny them THEIR rights to suit your own wants" that you're talking about guns on a campus.

I don't think it's denying their rights. The student doesn't have to go there. If it's so important to them, they don't have to go there.

And once again:

If guns make you nervous, you don't have to go there. If it's so important to you to not be around guns, you don't have to go there.

Tit for Tat my friend.

I can do this forever.

[CoolHand]

i guess if youre into that whole killing thing...and i seriously doubt that if you were at gunpoint you would be able to whip you pistol out and bust a cap, i mean we cant all be bruce willis' in die hard with a vengeance..

Yeah, 'cause it's way better to just cower in the corner and then die than maybe try to fight back.

You fail to grasp the fact that in a situation like this, once you meet the aggressor's force on equal footing, they are in the exact same boat you are. IE, they now have to fear for their life as well. You are in no way worse off than you would have been laying on the floor defenceless praying that he'll overlook you. In fact, for just the reason you mention, you are now significantly better off. Having the tables turned so abruptly will put an attacker off balance (IE the element of surprise is yours), which gives you the upper hand in the situation for a short time.

If you are properly trained (which you have to be in order to carry), you can make use of this few second window to execute a couple of well placed shots and be done with it.

You look at it from a point of view of someone who's never handled a gun in their lives (since you are quite obviously afraid of them), and just had one dropped into you hands while you were simultaneously thrust into this life or death situation. Of course in those circumstances you'd freak out, miss, and/or wimp out and die anyway. Training gives you situational awareness and mental discipline to resist the fear, and practice (LOTS of practice) gives you muscle memory to the point that it takes no conscious thought to hit what you are aiming at. It just becomes reflex at that point. Something bad goes down, you execute the checklist that confirms you should shoot, and then your hands take over from there. Happens so fast you won't have time to be afraid.

That's how soldiers can do the things they do, it's automatic. No man will run into the face of gunfire if he sets and thinks about it for very long, it has to be automatic and happen so fast that it's done and over before you can second guess.