Let's say I break into your house....

[Pneumagger]

Employers tend to hide the fact that an employee is an illegal if they have any working for them. They simply pay them cash "under the table" at the end of the week. By doing so, there is no record of illegal immigrants working there and taxes are not aid by the company or the immigrants - Which makes it easier for the employers to dodge pentalties and fines for hiring workers illegally. Just about everyone has done it in the past as a kid working for a friend of the family. For examle, alot of paintball fields may not want to deal with the legal documentation of employing the refs so they just pay the kids with an envelope full of cash or paint at the end of the week.

There are already immigrants here and by word of mouth they find thier way to employers willing to hire them under the table.

I'm sure you have lots of american born people currently living on welfare that could take their place...

Why the heck would they want to work for themselves and make threir own $20k a year when government welfare just freakin gives it to them? I feel some sort of internal conflict comin in not entirely distant future. May not be an all out civil war... but it'll be pretty big.

[Dark Side]

Employers tend to hide the fact that an employee is an illegal if they have any working for them. They simply pay them cash "under the table" at the end of the week. By doing so, there is no record of illegal immigrants working there and taxes are not aid by the company or the immigrants - Which makes it easier for the employers to dodge pentalties and fines for hiring workers illegally. Just about everyone has done it in the past as a kid working for a friend of the family. For examle, alot of paintball fields may not want to deal with the legal documentation of employing the refs so they just pay the kids with an envelope full of cash or paint at the end of the week.

There are already immigrants here and by word of mouth they find thier way to employers willing to hire them under the table.


Why the heck would they want to work for themselves and make threir own $20k a year when government welfare just freakin gives it to them? I feel some sort of internal conflict comin in not entirely distant future. May not be an all out civil war... but it'll be pretty big.

Don't forget by these people willing to work for less than an American citizen that the companies make more money in the end. It's actually more economic for them to hire illegals.

[SCpoloRicker]

why would i care about the other side of the issue? Illegal Immigrants are criminals and not legal US citizens. They, therefore, should not have a say or argument for their cause.

Would you side with a child molester arguing for NAMBLA? Would you side with a murderer arguing for the abolishment of the death penalty?

How do you feel about Hitler. Say what you want about the tenents of national socialism, Dude, but at least it's an ethos.

maybe not an all out civil war, but it'll be be pretty big

Mr. Titor?

[robnix]

Employers tend to hide the fact that an employee is an illegal if they have any working for them. They simply pay them cash "under the table" at the end of the week. By doing so, there is no record of illegal immigrants working there and taxes are not aid by the company or the immigrants - Which makes it easier for the employers to dodge pentalties and fines for hiring workers illegally. Just about everyone has done it in the past as a kid working for a friend of the family. For examle, alot of paintball fields may not want to deal with the legal documentation of employing the refs so they just pay the kids with an envelope full of cash or paint at the end of the week.

There are already immigrants here and by word of mouth they find thier way to employers willing to hire them under the table.


Why the heck would they want to work for themselves and make threir own $20k a year when government welfare just freakin gives it to them? I feel some sort of internal conflict comin in not entirely distant future. May not be an all out civil war... but it'll be pretty big.

Last year I was working for a land development company that put up condos and townhouses. My company and the contractors we worked with to do the building all made sure that each employee had the proper paperwork. Taxes and social security were paid by everyone, there was no cash under the table. Of course, the paperwork that was provided may not have been legitimate...watch your SSN carefully, especially the ones that belong to the elderly and the newborn.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

Linda Trevino, who lives in a Chicago suburb, applied for a job last year at a local Target department store, and was denied. The reason? She already worked there -- or rather, her Social Security number already worked there.

Day workers on the other hand, like the ones that will gather outside Home Depot are paid under the table, but even they can be considered contractors responsible for their own taxes.

[bjjb99]

Border agents are armed...

There are National Guard troops along the border as well, but they are not allowed to fire. For that matter, they are not allowed to apprehend people entering the U.S. illegally. Several months ago a National Guard unit was attacked by what were likely drug smugglers who had entered the U.S. from Mexico near Nogales. The Guard unit was forced to retreat. The attackers went back to Mexico after the incident.

I'm wondering when the day will come where the U.S. government just annexes a 10 mile wide strip of land along the borders and turns it into a long thin military base. I guess a few border communities (El Paso, anyone?) would suffer, though, so it's not likely to happen.

BJJB

[Lohman446]

why would i care about the other side of the issue? Illegal Immigrants are criminals and not legal US citizens. They, therefore, should not have a say or argument for their cause.

Would you side with a child molester arguing for NAMBLA? Would you side with a murderer arguing for the abolishment of the death penalty?

I theoretically support the death penalty. However, I do not in practice. Well I agree it deters crime I also note its expensive. It is more expensive to give someone the full appeals process and execute them than it is to house them for life. I don't want the appeals process shortened....

Chances are you have broken a law in your life. Does that make everything you do after that wrong? Sped to get to work? Well, you shouldn't even be there in the first place.

While I agree something needs to be done about imigration I am not of the extreme argument that some have that its an instant lock down of the border and massive deportation. Secure the borders, but I don't think there is an effective way to deport now, and I think it would destabalize things. Yes, they are here illegally and that needs to be addressed. But we also have other things to consider.

[Lohman446]

There are National Guard troops along the border as well, but they are not allowed to fire. For that matter, they are not allowed to apprehend people entering the U.S. illegally. Several months ago a National Guard unit was attacked by what were likely drug smugglers who had entered the U.S. from Mexico near Nogales. The Guard unit was forced to retreat. The attackers went back to Mexico after the incident.

I'm wondering when the day will come where the U.S. government just annexes a 10 mile wide strip of land along the borders and turns it into a long thin military base. I guess a few border communities (El Paso, anyone?) would suffer, though, so it's not likely to happen.

BJJB

The point is this. Are we willing to give our agents shoot to kill orders (because there are no other shoot orders)? I'm not talking the aggressive ones who attack our agents, I'm talking just illegal immigrants in general. If we are, then we are shooting them just because they wanted a better life. If we are not, and do not give the orders to (as is the case now) then its... well a problem with effectiveness

[teufelhunden]

The point is this. Are we willing to give our agents shoot to kill orders (because there are no other shoot orders)? I'm not talking the aggressive ones who attack our agents, I'm talking just illegal immigrants in general. If we are, then we are shooting them just because they wanted a better life. If we are not, and do not give the orders to (as is the case now) then its... well a problem with effectiveness

Some would argue they'd have a better life if they killed George Bush. Does that make it ok?

Is it OK to steal from your company for a better life?

Do we allow child molesters to practice their... thing... because they think it is fulfilling and hence, makes their life better?

Since someone else brought up Hitler, he thought there'd be a better life for a lot of people if all the Jews, Catholics, etc. were killed. That must be OK, it was making a better life for others.




In most/all of these "well someone's life is better" situations, its usually at someone else's expense. Is it OK to improve your life at the expense of someone else?

[Tac-OneFun]

So

In most/all of these "well someone's life is better" situations, its usually at someone else's expense. Is it OK to improve your life at the expense of someone else?

booyah. And no, its not OK for them to have a better life at my expense.

[Pneumagger]

Physical Bariers are usually made of FAIL and LOSE. The physical barriers in place now cost many people thier lives as it is coming into this country. They need to morrally/mentally dejected of the oportunity of a better life through the exploitation of American Freedoms - that is the only way to stop the flux of illegal immigration to the US.

I can think of no better way to morally deject a minority race of immigrating mexicans than cloning Chris Rock and posting him along the Mexican border to verbally harass them.

[paintballfiend]

Does anyone here know or communicate with illegal immigrants?

[iambored]

hmm...More Chris Rock...that would be pretty sweet.
But guns will work fine in my book, too. (darn, no fun.)
Oh, and lets not put Hitler in this. Hitler was building his own world through elimination
No where has anyone said kill all of illegally immigrating races. That isn't, nor will it ever be needed.

[Lohman446]

Some would argue they'd have a better life if they killed George Bush. Does that make it ok?

Is it OK to steal from your company for a better life?

Do we allow child molesters to practice their... thing... because they think it is fulfilling and hence, makes their life better?

Since someone else brought up Hitler, he thought there'd be a better life for a lot of people if all the Jews, Catholics, etc. were killed. That must be OK, it was making a better life for others.




In most/all of these "well someone's life is better" situations, its usually at someone else's expense. Is it OK to improve your life at the expense of someone else?

Ethical hedonism, as has been discussed, so no.

And you are intentionally missing the point. Is it wrong that someone should have a far worse life, not because of hard work, or anything else, simply because they were born 15 miles south?

I agree there is a problem. I disagree with the egocentric viewpoint some people have of it.

[Lohman446]

To the house analogy.

Lets say we are on a deserted island. You build some great house - a mansion with every amenety a person could want for. You consume about 90% of the islands reasources to do it and maintain it. The resources you waste could double for my meal. I come into the house, rest in the AC, do productive work around the house, hey, I even helped you build it.

Is it right for you to deny me entrance to it? Especially if I say I want to build onto it, and make it better for both of us to share?

[robnix]

Does anyone here know or communicate with illegal immigrants?

I spent 10 years working in restaurants, I've been involved in the construction industry, now I work for a company that does fish processing. The first house I bought was in an area of Seattle where Caucasians were a very small minority, many store signs not in english, and certain stores almost required the use of the native tongue. So I guess you could say I've known a few, at least the few that would admit it. Some were good people that were simply trying to earn a living, some weren't. Some tried joining in on the American dream, some didn't.

Everyone arguing this should take a very close look at what happened in West Germany with their gastarbeiter programs and the Turkish. That's where I think we're headed with the proposals we have in front of us today.

http://www.catalystmagazine.org/Default.aspx.LocID-0hgnew0dt.RefLocID-0hg01b001006009.Lang-EN.htm

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,460185,00.html

And some excellent comment from Otto Schily.

http://www.cceia.org/resources/transcripts/5280.html