RTing with a lvl10

[Watcher]

Ok, my RT Pro valve was wicked awesome with a lvl7 bolt. I could sweetspot the trigger above 20bps without paint and more with paint out of a Crossfire fixed output 800psi tank.

It was a total beast!

I recently got a lvl10 bolt on it, and now it refuses to RT. I can't even get a 2 shot burst with or without paint!

Now I know the lvl10 uses more air, it is just it's nature. But, since it has a harder return spring you have to up the pressure. Upping the pressure should make the on/off want to reset faster/harder, which would make RTing easier, right?

So why is it the opposite?

It seems like it made the trigger pull lighter! Made it so I can walk the mag easier and it seems to short stroke less, but why?


If you argue that the tank doesn't have a fast enough recharge rate for the valve, then why does that make a difference in the on/off pin's reset pressure?


I can still shoot her plenty fast for my taste, but if I want to show off and let out a string of " " I can't anymore...


The valve I have uses the one top on/off o-ring, so I can't ULT it unless I get it drilled and I really don't want to do that.

[Spider-TW]

Something I've never checked that would make a difference; check the rim diameters between your level 7 and your level 10. A larger diameter bolt rim would change the overlap between the on/off pin and the sear edge, effectively "lengthening" your on/off pin. I've always assumed all of them were the same diameter.

With the level 10 using a little more air dry firing, could it be hitting the limit on your tank flow? Have you tried it with paint?

Out of curiosity, which bumper are you using?

[Wanta B Sniper]

Interesting, mine was the opposite. WIth the LvL 7 I got some reactiveness, but once I dropped in the LvL 10 I could RT until my finger got too sore to hold the trigger anymore! But it also made my trigger lighter, like yours, I can almost walk it now.

[TeamBob]

my dad has an Rt that does the same thing. He had AGD put in a lvl 10 at the amature open years ago, and since then, his has RTed either. I have 1 that i am going to try in the next few days and see what happens...

[Wanta B Sniper]

Assuming that you have the longest spring in, try switching to the short, LvL 7 spring and see what happens.

[Watcher]

Something I've never checked that would make a difference; check the rim diameters between your level 7 and your level 10. A larger diameter bolt rim would change the overlap between the on/off pin and the sear edge, effectively "lengthening" your on/off pin. I've always assumed all of them were the same diameter.

With the level 10 using a little more air dry firing, could it be hitting the limit on your tank flow? Have you tried it with paint?

Out of curiosity, which bumper are you using?

The diameters are the same, I remember because I had an issue fitting the bolt into my body ring as I somehow aquired an SFL lvl10 and needed to grind the tip down. I put a Mic' to everything and excepting the nose of the bolt all measurements match the lvl7 bolt.


Just shot it with paint last weekend, it won't sweetspot. I'll tell you the lvl10 is a life saver though, the paint we were shooting was horrid!

Using a RT bumper, but why would that matter? I mean, besides the classic bumpers.

Assuming that you have the longest spring in, try switching to the short, LvL 7 spring and see what happens.

I'll try that, but that would make the lvl10 less effective, correct?

[Wanta B Sniper]

Yes, it will reduce the effectiveness of the LvL 10 but it will still do it's job, and it will take less pressure to make it work = better RT.

[Watcher]

I'll give it a shot, but idk if I'll want to lose my softness.

The paint I was shooting last weekend was being squeezed in between the paddles of my 98s cyclone feed... smooshy stuff.


Edit:
Put in the lighter spring. If it made any difference my human fingers could not tell.

But, when I stuck my finger in the breach damn did it give me a pinch!

I'm sticking with the strongest spring.



With the lvl10 I'm using the largest carrier that doesn't leak, and I'm using 2 shims...

[Timber_Ghost]

Add one more shim than you need so that the gun leaks. Then just take out that last shim and run it over a metal file to thin it in very small incriments until the leak stops. That should give you more reactivity. I did that with my Tac 1 and i get some rediculous reactivity out of it even with the ULT kit.

[Watcher]

Add one more shim than you need so that the gun leaks. Then just take out that last shim and run it over a metal file to thin it in very small incriments until the leak stops. That should give you more reactivity. I did that with my Tac 1 and i get some rediculous reactivity out of it even with the ULT kit.

I would try it if I had another shim.

My kit didn't come with shims or a backing washer, Tunaman sent me 3 shims and a washer to get it working, and at LL2 I handed off a shim to a fellow 'Maggot who's lvl10 was having issues.


But I think GRimm has a x-valve parts kit with some shims, maybe I'll steal one.



Any idea why that works? I thought the shims were just to tell the bolt when it can vent.


Any recommendatins on how to file it? Its not like it can stay on a table when I pass a file on it, and holding it would tear my fingers up...

[Spider-TW]

The diameters are the same, I remember because I had an issue fitting the bolt into my body ring as I somehow aquired an SFL lvl10 and needed to grind the tip down. I put a Mic' to everything and excepting the nose of the bolt all measurements match the lvl7 bolt.

Did you measure the length from the back face of the bolt to the lip?

Is the shape of the ridge around the bolt lip the same on both bolts?

If everything on the marker is the same, the difference should be in the lip somewhere.

[athomas]

The reactive trigger is caused by the difference between the force of the pull and the force of the return. The force of the pull increases slightly in the level 10 due to the higher operating pressure of the chamber. Even after the shot is fired, the residual pressure remaining in the chamber is considerably higher. The input pressure remains the same, so the differential force between the input and the chamber is reduced. Therefore the reduced differential pressure combined with the increased trigger pull, reduces the overal ability of the valve to become reactive using a level 10 bolt.

Using a short spring lowers the operating pressure and you can gain some of the reaction back. When testing, remember to lower the velocity setting to compensate or your chamber pressure will be too high. This will make it feel like it will pinch balls when you stick your finger in the chamber, but if the velocity is reduced back to the alllow the proper operating velocity it will be fine. The level 7 spring still works quite well as an antichop device when properly setup.

Adding a shim or two between the rt on-off halve helps with the reaction. It has the same effect as shortening the on-off pin.

[Spider-TW]

The reactive trigger is caused by the difference between the force of the pull and the force of the return. The force of the pull increases slightly in the level 10 due to the higher operating pressure of the chamber. Even after the shot is fired, the residual pressure remaining in the chamber is considerably higher. The input pressure remains the same, so the differential force between the input and the chamber is reduced. Therefore the reduced differential pressure combined with the increased trigger pull, reduces the overal ability of the valve to become reactive using a level 10 bolt.

That is true. However, I thought dry firing a level 10 should keep it from retaining a high pressure, so I kind of expected he would have better reactivity without paint.

[Watcher]

Did you measure the length from the back face of the bolt to the lip?

Is the shape of the ridge around the bolt lip the same on both bolts?

If everything on the marker is the same, the difference should be in the lip somewhere.

Yes, it is all the same.



@ athomas

I DID forget to lower the velocity when I switched springs. I will have to try it again.
Only I don't know when I'll have access to paint and a chrono next.

Will shims fit in the RT on/off?


Also, I understand comepletely what you explained though I am a tad confused now as to why my trigger pull got lighter.

[athomas]

Will shims fit in the RT on/off?


Also, I understand comepletely what you explained though I am a tad confused now as to why my trigger pull got lighter.

Yes, the shims fit the RT on-off perfectly.

The trigger pull can still get lighter because of the reduced forward force acting on the sear. When you pull the trigger, quite often the movement of the sear actually pushes the bolt back ever so slightly. By reducing the force on the bolt, you also reduce the amount of force it takes to push it back and also the friction caused by the movement.