RTing with a lvl10

[athomas]

That is true. However, I thought dry firing a level 10 should keep it from retaining a high pressure, so I kind of expected he would have better reactivity without paint.

You are correct. There should be less residual pressure in the chamber. I don't know how much air is left when dry firing or if it completely empties. I don't have an answer for that one right now.

[Timber_Ghost]

No idea why the filing works.... I put on a leather glove and held shim down onto the file with my thumb. It worked without losing any skin.

[Watcher]

I still can't understand why I lost my reactivity.

Even with different internal operating pressures and springs and such, I shouldn't lose reactivity of the trigger as the same pressure is exerted down onto the on/off pin.

Even if the dump chamber's pressure is inscreased, the spring tension was increased so it shouldn't effect the trigger weight too drastically.


The thing that confuses me is how drastic the change was. How can it go from 23cps RT to nothing RT simply by changing the bolt system?
If it went from like 23 to 12 ok, no biggy, but 23 to 0 needs explaining.


All I got so far are fixes, and whether they work or not I will have to test soon and thanks to all the user input, but I really need to know why...

[athomas]

I still can't understand why I lost my reactivity.

Even with different internal operating pressures and springs and such, I shouldn't lose reactivity of the trigger as the same pressure is exerted down onto the on/off pin..

The same pressure is exerted down on the top of the pin, but there is more exerted up on the bottom of the pin from the higher chamber pressure. The result is less differential pressure. The one constant is the mass of the sear assembly. With less resulting forces working on the sear assembly and the mass not changing, the smaller resulting differential forces aren't high enough to provide a high enough positive feedback force to move both the sear assembly and your finger.

[Spider-TW]

I would think you should still be close to getting RT, even though you have lost some to chamber pressure.

If this was your well used level 7 bolt, perhaps the finish on the lip where the sear rides is more polished than the new level 10 (?). I'm not saying that is all the difference, but maybe a place where you could make it up.

You could always try a 0.723 pin. (0.728? I never remember the last digit on those.)

[athomas]

The original emag pin was 0.725".

[Spider-TW]

The original emag pin was 0.725".

I looked mine up. I bought the 0.728 RT pin and the 0.712 emag pin. The emag pin was too short except with the quad o-ring, which makes my ep mag happy. The 0.728 has always been pretty harmless in some of my classic and x valves, but I wasn't trying to RT them, just pneu them.

Shimming an RT on/off always seemed unpredictable to me, but it would make a good test at least. I was thinking about making a washer that sits on top of the on/off top, under the o-rings. That would be less sensitive to thread adjustments in the RT body and the thumb screw.

[Watcher]

Sorry to up a dead thread, but I am really thinking of experiementing with this soon.


The major question I have is, why would adding a lvl10 shim make it react more?

[Ando]

You talking about adding shims to your RT on/off or Lvl 10?

[Spider-TW]

Sorry to up a dead thread, but I am really thinking of experiementing with this soon.


The major question I have is, why would adding a lvl10 shim make it react more?

Shimming or pin mods don't make the valve more reactive in the way higher input pressure will. They make it less work for the pressure you have to push back on the trigger, instead of pushing on seal and sear surfaces.

The lower the pressure the tank reg is set at, the faster it needs to be. I think there are more capable (you can read that both ways) standard regs available now than when the RT came out. Although we can't seem to keep more than a few manufacturers in business at one time.

You could try a No.8 brass washer on top, like this one. You can sand it down if it is too thick.

[AnthonyDStone]

Your Level Ten Is Probably NOT Tuned/Broken In Properly.The Friction on the Level Ten Carrier O Ring Will Lessen as It Breaks In.Tune It The Way these guys Told you to and Then Give It Some time.Level Tens Need To Be Cycled Around 500 Times Before the Oring Truly Mates To The Rest of the Parts.If Nothing You Could Try the Next Size Up Carrier to reduce friction.
LVLX Will Almost always Stop Balls From Being Chopped,Regardless of spring,You Just Won't Be Able to turn the velocity Up Beyond 270~with the shorter "LVL7"Spring.I personally NEVER Use the Red Spring.Hope somthing I Said Helps!

Tony

[Watcher]

Your Level Ten Is Probably NOT Tuned/Broken In Properly.The Friction on the Level Ten Carrier O Ring Will Lessen as It Breaks In.Tune It The Way these guys Told you to and Then Give It Some time.Level Tens Need To Be Cycled Around 500 Times Before the Oring Truly Mates To The Rest of the Parts.If Nothing You Could Try the Next Size Up Carrier to reduce friction.
LVLX Will Almost always Stop Balls From Being Chopped,Regardless of spring,You Just Won't Be Able to turn the velocity Up Beyond 270~with the shorter "LVL7"Spring.I personally NEVER Use the Red Spring.Hope somthing I Said Helps!

Tony

My lvl10 has about 3 cases through it at this point, and nothing has changed. The next size up carrier I use leaks, so the one I have is currently ideal.

Why won't I be able to get the velocity up with the lvl7 spring? Or will it just be able to chop if I get the velocity high enough?
Or will the reg leak by pushing it?

Is the red spring equivilant to the clipped one? Or is the red one the hardest?



No, earlier someone said to use an extra shim in the lvl10 until it leaks, then sand it down until it stops leaking and it will gain reactivity. That makes no sense to me as all the shims do is tell the bolt when it can fire.

As far as the washer above the on/off, I tried a washer I had in my parts kit and it made the on/off not fit in the valve correctly so the valve would not fit in the gun.
It was probably just too thick, but I don't know if it will work even with a thin one as I tried it with the field-strip screw washer and that didn't even let me use the valve.
It may be due to the fact that I have a single o-ring top on/off.

I'll try one of those #8 washers today though and see what happens.

However, I did try to switch to the lvl7 spring again and it made it react very well. Perhaps THIS was due to the lvl10 breaking in, but I do not know. If you are saying I can't get the velocity up then I won't be able to use it anyway.

[AnthonyDStone]

Why Dop you Need More Velocity?Try it over a Chrono and Shoot it for accuracy/distance.I Bet you will be happy at the velocity you are getting with the lvl 7 spring.I Never use anything else.You should be able to go as high as 285 without problems.And NO It Won't leak at these velocities and should be just fine on paint!The Only thing I Could See doing with washers is have 3 rather than two in the lvl 10,the washers Give it SPACE to vent(Between the washers)I Find 3 works much better than 2 for Quick Venting in the event the level ten needs to do its job.

Tony

[athomas]

My lvl10 has about 3 cases through it at this point, and nothing has changed. The next size up carrier I use leaks, so the one I have is currently ideal.

Why won't I be able to get the velocity up with the lvl7 spring? Or will it just be able to chop if I get the velocity high enough?
Or will the reg leak by pushing it?

Is the red spring equivilant to the clipped one? Or is the red one the hardest?



No, earlier someone said to use an extra shim in the lvl10 until it leaks, then sand it down until it stops leaking and it will gain reactivity. That makes no sense to me as all the shims do is tell the bolt when it can fire.

As far as the washer above the on/off, I tried a washer I had in my parts kit and it made the on/off not fit in the valve correctly so the valve would not fit in the gun.
It was probably just too thick, but I don't know if it will work even with a thin one as I tried it with the field-strip screw washer and that didn't even let me use the valve.
It may be due to the fact that I have a single o-ring top on/off.

I'll try one of those #8 washers today though and see what happens.

However, I did try to switch to the lvl7 spring again and it made it react very well. Perhaps THIS was due to the lvl10 breaking in, but I do not know. If you are saying I can't get the velocity up then I won't be able to use it anyway.

Any of the springs allow good antichop. Turning up the velocity probably won't affect the chopping too much. The spring you are using should allow you to operate at about 20 fps above the lowest setting that the gun will cycle.

The red spring is the same as the cut spring.

Shims in the level 10 system only affect how far the bolt needs to move in order to vent air. Most of the time you never need them because even if there is a breach block, the bolt will move far enough anyway. I don't know where the sanding idea came from. You don't ever need to do that.

Using a shim or two in the on-off pushes the top up higher and simulates a shorter on-off pin. This shortens the distance between the point where the on-off closes and the sear is released and makes it easier to go reactive. Too many shims in the on-off and you squeeze the oring and actually make it tighter, which could interfer with the operation. I wouldn't use any more than one or two if I was doing it. It just adds some tweaking. A washer is probably too thick.

The level 7 spring will work at all velocities. The stronger springs will only allow the gun to cycle at higher velocities. Too stiff a spring and the starting velocity may be too high for the field you are at. Use the spring that allows you to shoot in the range you want to.

[Watcher]

I've been using the middle spring with good results over the chrono, however all the fields by me limit at 280 so if the lvl7 spring can handle up to 285 then I should be good to go.
I always thought the lvl7 spring was for indoor velocity, so around 250...

I like to chrono a bit low with the mag since it will heat-ramp.


I'll be playing with the gun near the end of this month, so I'll see how it does then.


If I try the on/off washer then I'll post up the results later.