RTing with a lvl10

[Ando]

[Watcher]

I am not messing with the lvl10 shims. Besides, I only have 2 and I'm not about to bend/break them.

I am the kind of guy where if I don't know how it works I won't mess with it, and I don't see how on earth that shimming the lvl10 differently will change anything.


Now, what I AM trying is the use of shims in the On/Off, and THAT is what I am using a washer for.



I'm all for the adjustable output regs, but I don't really want to dig one up nor do I want rediculous reactivity. All I want is for my mag to perform like it did with the lvl7, but I want the anti-chop propeties.

Plus, I don't want to be changing my reg for every gun I put my HPA tank on. My Crossfire and Ninja regs work excellent on my mag with a lvl7 bolt installed.

If adding a washer to the On/Off will do that I'm willing to try it.


Anyway I found a washer that is .200 thickness. That is 2 lvl10 shims or 4 ULT shims. It is too thick and it won't allow my On/Off to fit in the valve. I am working on filing it down to .100 or even .050.

[athomas]

Shims in the level 10 have no affect on the retro effect.

Watcher: The level 7 bolt spring will work in all conditions. Its not just for low velocity. As you install stiffer and stiffer springs, the lowest cycling velocity also increases. What it means, is that the level 7 spring may allow the mag to start cycling at 220 fps depending on your setup. This means it will work reliably at any range above 240 fps. The red spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 260 fps. That means the gun will cycle reliably at any velocity above 280 fps. The stiffest spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 300 fps, which means it will not cycle reliably until it is set to 320 fps or above. These values vary from mag to mag but give you an idea of how the springs affect your velocity range.

For the RT effect, the shorter pins or simulated shorter pins only help increase any reactivity. If your setup is not able to RT, chances are that a shorter pin will not help. RT effect is caused by the differential force from the unregulated pressure acting on the top of the pin to the regulated force acting on the bottom of the pin. That is why it works better when you increase the input pressure.

Retro valves don't heat ramp as much with level 10 bolts installed. The heating is due to the recompression of the air in the front chamber. Since the level 10 bolts operate on a higher chamber pressure there is less difference between the input and the chamber pressures and the amount of heating is reduced.

[Watcher]

Shims in the level 10 have no affect on the retro effect.

Watcher: The level 7 bolt spring will work in all conditions. Its not just for low velocity. As you install stiffer and stiffer springs, the lowest cycling velocity also increases. What it means, is that the level 7 spring may allow the mag to start cycling at 220 fps depending on your setup. This means it will work reliably at any range above 240 fps. The red spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 260 fps. That means the gun will cycle reliably at any velocity above 280 fps. The stiffest spring may not allow the gun to cycle until the velocity is set to 300 fps, which means it will not cycle reliably until it is set to 320 fps or above. These values vary from mag to mag but give you an idea of how the springs affect your velocity range.

For the RT effect, the shorter pins or simulated shorter pins only help increase any reactivity. If your setup is not able to RT, chances are that a shorter pin will not help. RT effect is caused by the differential force from the unregulated pressure acting on the top of the pin to the regulated force acting on the bottom of the pin. That is why it works better when you increase the input pressure.

Retro valves don't heat ramp as much with level 10 bolts installed. The heating is due to the recompression of the air in the front chamber. Since the level 10 bolts operate on a higher chamber pressure there is less difference between the input and the chamber pressures and the amount of heating is reduced.

Ok, thanks for the info. Really cleared some stuff up.

The lvl7 spring DID help increase my reactivity, as I tried it at work today. I was able to RT much more effectively.

Currently I have a washer filed down to .100 and I tosses it into the On/Off. It helped immensely, however it leaks out of the On/Off with the washer installed.

So, off to ULT tuning threads for now. I'll update.

[athomas]

It shouldn't leak out the on-off with a washer installed unless a piece of dirt got on one of the 2 lower orings either inside or outside. As long as those two orings are making contact there should be no leak.

[Watcher]

It shouldn't leak out the on-off with a washer installed unless a piece of dirt got on one of the 2 lower orings either inside or outside. As long as those two orings are making contact there should be no leak.

I even aired it up without the washer. For some reason with it installed it leaks.

Washer was very clean, I rinsed it off and even put some oil on it.

It got bent inside the On/Off, though, so I'm going to try a larger OD washer on top.


I know it was the On/Off because it leaked with the trigger pulled as well as at rest. The only other place to leak from is the PT and that isn't happening because the lvl10 is set up correctly.


Edit:

Ok, with a .100 shim on top of the on/off and the lvl7 sping I get very good reactivity. I'd compare it to the lvl7 bolt!
With the harder spring, the one I wanted, it isn't rediculous but it is still very RT-able. And the bolt feather-taps my finger, where the lvl7 spring I can actually feel it a little.


I think I am happy with it. Once I get to a chrono and add paint it should fire very easily.

[Watcher]

Put the lvl7 spring in to test with paint.

You guys were right, it stops on RPS Stinger, which is well known at my store to be the choppiest paint we ever sold...


So I am thuroughly happy with the results of the lighter spring and the washer on/off mod.

[Watcher]

So my heart took a belly flop today.


I was all excited to shoot my RT with the washer shimmed on/off and lvl7 spring on the lvl10 bolt, I go to the chrono and I'm shoting 165. When I get it up to 280, I lose my RT function!


As opposed to unshimmed, the shimmed on/off allows me to walk it easier, but I still don't have RT function since I installed the lvl10...


I can get it cranking with a little practice, but it still can't sweetspot the trigger...


Am I lost short of upping the pressure or shortening the on/off pin?


I'm running with a .750 pin, on/off shimmed with a .010 washer (biggest I can go and have the valve still fit in the body), trigger pin to spec, running SS line.

I'd like to make the tank non mag-specific at 850psi output, and I'd like to keep the valve I have but make it reactive.


Is there a way that getting it drilled for 2-oring top would make it have higher flow? I know I could then ULT it...

[Ando]

Is there a way that getting it drilled for 2-oring top would make it have higher flow? I know I could then ULT it...

No it's not going to give you a higher flow. Last thing you can do besides getting a adj tank is shaving down your on/off pin.

[Watcher]

How much can the pin be shortened before it can cause problems?

.725? .712?

[SSP REAPER]

How much can the pin be shortened before it can cause problems?

.725? .712?

I would go no shorter than .712
There is a reason the Emag uses a .712 pin and not anything less.
Unless you own an Xmag of course

[Watcher]

I would go no shorter than .712
There is a reason the Emag uses a .712 pin and not anything less.
Unless you own an Xmag of course

Why, what do X's need?


Actually, I just read in the tolerance spec sticky that the RT Pro uses a .765 pin, not a .750 pin as is currently inside my gun.

Why is it longer spec than the Automag/RT/ReTro/X pin? And should I use that length pin?

If I am correct, shorter should be more reactive. Why would a longer pin be used?

[athomas]

Are you using a quad oring? The quad oring will reduce some of the friction associated with the on-off assembly. It should help. Because the quad oring moves the contact point lower, it will require you to use a shorter pin. I think the distance change is about 0.012". This is why the emags moved from a 0.725" pin to a 0.712" pin following the addition of the quad oring.

Another area that can help, is to use an unported barrel that is about 11" long. That maximizes the efficiency of the system and allows the operation at a lower chamber pressure, which would increase reactivity. The other option is to find a barrel with small porting. I have an old Equation barrel that is very quiet and very efficient at the same time. It seems like the best of both worlds.

[Spider-TW]

So, athomas, you think at higher velocities the marker has higher dump chamber pressures and he's loosing that last bit of pressure differential, compared to the lower velocity chamber pressures?

I guess the other end is that you could be hitting the flow limit on your bottle reg at higher pressures but not at the lower pressures.

I didn't see it above just now, which bottle reg are you using?

[athomas]

Operating at a higher chamber pressure does affect the differential value and thus does affect the reactivity. This same differential would also affect a regulator. If the mag reg immediately dumps any available air pressure into the chamber, then the lag caused by a slow reacting bottle regulator would prevent any prolonged force acting on the top of the on-off pin. The actual pressure seen by the top of the pin would never be as high as the output of the bottle reg once the air starts to flow past the pin. The slower the bottle reg is, the lower the pressure at the output gets. The higher chamber pressure further reduces any potential flow. The amount of force available to push the top of the pin is directly proportional to the pressure difference so reactivity goes down with small differential pressures and slow regulator response.