Twist lock , freak boring

[ghost flanker]

You are correct. There isn't much difference between these two (borematching and underboring). The major difference is between underbore and bore matching compared to overboring. Even bore matching has an issue when you get a single odd paintball. This usually doesn't show up in normal rental paint, but will show up in fragile paint. If you jam that oversized paintball into a barrel opening that it doesn't fit into, the chances of it breaking go up significantly. I qualify the oversized paintball as one that has an odd size that causes one orientation to be larger than the opening it is going into.

I don't have my actual test data anymore, so it can't be used for a real scientific evaluation. That is long gone since my last move. The numbers were significant for the paint that was tested when it was done. The paint was not that bad for odd shapes but was really brittle so it showed the exaggerated consequences which was great for testing. The bore-matched (not even underbored) barrel had a breakage rate of about 5%. The overbored barrel had a breakage rate of about .1%. It was so significant of a difference it was astounding.

I had another paint that numbers weren't tested for that couldn't be shot out of a slightly underbore barrel without breakage (ie; 100% breakage) because it was so brittle. The barrel wasn't really under-bored that much. The paint was smaller than the barrel except it was slightly tighter than what I would consider to be an ideal borematch. Overboring allowed that paint to be used without breakage.

As an engineer I like exaggerated values trailing off to infinity. It often shows extreme events even if those events might never occur in use for the average user. The extremely fragile paint we used represented those infinity values. The normal user would probably never encounter those extremes so normal paint might act the same in an underbored barrel compared to a borematched or overbored barrel. In extreme cases however, the data does show that there is a difference. As the paint goes toward the fragile range the chances of breakage does go up for underbored barrels. This could be an issue for extreme tournament grade paint.

Now this is interesting! That's a 50:1 ratio between overbore barrels and all other barrels! This is in stark contrast to Punkworks's tests which showed no significant difference between underbore, overbore, and bore matched. Perhaps they used a thicker shelled paint in their tests. If cockerpunk happens across this thread, maybe he can fill us in on the brand and brittleness of paint that he used to test barrel breaks.

Of course, I'm more interested in the performance and reliability of higher quality paint that flies straight, not cheap rental paint or house paint. Paints of interest to me include makes such as high quality rec paint like Grafitti, GI 4 Star, etc. as well as uber-brittle tournament paint like Redemption, GI 5 Star, etc.

I have so many questions about your test; Do you recall the brands of paint that you used in your test to achieve such significant results? Any chance you remember what the drop test results for said paint was? Do you think I could replicate your results using HK Supreme, which breaks reliably in a drop test on drop 1 from a height of 18"-36"? What was the approximate temperature during your test? Was the same gun and loader used throughout the test? Did you adjust your velocity to the same fps each time you changed bore size?

[Nobody]

Now this is interesting! That's a 50:1 ratio between overbore barrels and all other barrels! This is in stark contrast to Punkworks's tests which showed no significant difference between underbore, overbore, and bore matched. Perhaps they used a thicker shelled paint in their tests. If cockerpunk happens across this thread, maybe he can fill us in on the brand and brittleness of paint that he used to test barrel breaks.

Of course, I'm more interested in the performance and reliability of higher quality paint that flies straight, not cheap rental paint or house paint. Paints of interest to me include makes such as high quality rec paint like Grafitti, GI 4 Star, etc. as well as uber-brittle tournament paint like Redemption, GI 5 Star, etc.

I have so many questions about your test; Do you recall the brands of paint that you used in your test to achieve such significant results? Any chance you remember what the drop test results for said paint was? Do you think I could replicate your results using HK Supreme, which breaks reliably in a drop test on drop 1 from a height of 18"-36"? What was the approximate temperature during your test? Was the same gun and loader used throughout the test?

That is because you try to believe that punkwerks "data" as verbatim. Paint is a fluid, ever changing variable that goes through changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and to freshness, to environmental effects. They were ok in Wisconsin, but is that the same weather in California or Texas, or NJ or Florida? If anything, you use it as a base, and apply your own experiences, your own conditions(like if you shoot the highest quality paint or the cheapest), and your own choices.

I really wish people stopped trying to put static results to paintball. I have shot dozens of different paint, and some shot great, some didn't, some even was good for a year then changed, or just consistently awful. I accept that i can not change how the paint shoots but try to adjust my style and my barrels. Some barrels work great, some don't. And in paintball, we all know that some day you shoot lasers never getting hit. Other days, you are a paint magnet that would be lucky to hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Yet cocker barrels will still be better than twistlocks just for the simple reason of availability in whatever size, style and length you want.

[bowcycle]

just a personal observation on overboring:
3 years ago at OK-DDay (eastern OK heat and humidity in June), I used a freak barrel on my ULE mag w/ lvl10 classic bolt. I shot 3 cases of Redemption over the week and used the insert that wouldn't let the paint roll through, but required a consistent "puff" of air to blow them out. That week I broke about 2-3 rounds in the barrel per half-day of play. (some days are only minis and Saturday is the full day)

last year at OK-DDay (same location and time of year with a higher heat index than 2014), I used the same marker, same barrel, and Redemption paint, but went a size up on inserts over what required blow-thru. This allowed roll-out on most of the paint, but a few balls would require a "tap" to get them through. I didn't have a single ball break the entire week. Never had to squeegee my barrel.

I can't effectively speak to accuracy differences, but the breakage differences were pretty clear.

[athomas]

Now this is interesting! That's a 50:1 ratio between overbore barrels and all other barrels! This is in stark contrast to Punkworks's tests which showed no significant difference between underbore, overbore, and bore matched. Perhaps they used a thicker shelled paint in their tests. If cockerpunk happens across this thread, maybe he can fill us in on the brand and brittleness of paint that he used to test barrel breaks.

Of course, I'm more interested in the performance and reliability of higher quality paint that flies straight, not cheap rental paint or house paint. Paints of interest to me include makes such as high quality rec paint like Grafitti, GI 4 Star, etc. as well as uber-brittle tournament paint like Redemption, GI 5 Star, etc.

I have so many questions about your test; Do you recall the brands of paint that you used in your test to achieve such significant results? Any chance you remember what the drop test results for said paint was? Do you think I could replicate your results using HK Supreme, which breaks reliably in a drop test on drop 1 from a height of 18"-36"? What was the approximate temperature during your test? Was the same gun and loader used throughout the test? Did you adjust your velocity to the same fps each time you changed bore size?

It was a while ago, but I believe the paint on our test was Draxxus. I can't remember the grade, but the seams were really weak for that batch. They were a 1 drop break for most of the paint. We only tested the drop from shoulder height so I can't attest to how low it could go and still break. The hopper used was an VL Egg. We didn't want something that would provide a force fed ball into the breach. The weather conditions were cool and dry. I suspect it was about 50 degrees farenheit. This paint had a flaw that allowed a test like this to exaggerate any results. The 50:1 ratio is pretty exaggerated and doesn't represent how most paint will function in similar tests but it does highlight a potential issue. I suspect any really brittle paint will give breakage results but may not give the exaggerated results we had, because of the flaw that our paint had.

The paint that broke on every shot was a random paint that someone gave us. I don't know what it was. It was just brutally brittle.

I used the results for personal play style. All tournaments going forward, were played using overbored barrels in all instances. I played several years of X-ball and can count on 1 hand the number of ball I broke in my guns using overbored barrels, even when others using the same paint were having multiple breaks per game.

[tucson.az.jbreen]

Doc's tanto barrel really made a difference for my mag. With my dye ultra lite(.693) my fps was all over the place. Lie between 270 and 310. Multiple times playing, multiple fields meaning different Chrono boxes. The indoor field in Phoenix restricts you to 265, and I was between 260 and 270 all day, no issues running the tanto barrel with a .684

My buddy ran the same .684 on his impulse, and his little brother ran .682 on a Spyder tl and was nailing people all day with a zip tied hopper.

We all used their new custom field blend from gi sports.

Shell was good, fill was invisible ink blue, hard to tell if you hit someone.

[ghost flanker]

Just got a Doc's Tanto barrel, myself. Aside from the fact that it's freaky, I also greatly appreciate the light weight and simplistic styling of it. Goes perfectly on an XMT ULE minimag body.
IMG_3653.jpg
Love, love, love this gun! So damn light and comfy to hold. Took her out in this configuration for the first time last weekend. Big outlaw woodsball game. She Chuck Norris'd the living hell out of the other team for the first 2 games before I started feeling bad and switched over to my classic mag and ultimately my Phantom.

[ghost flanker]

That is because you try to believe that punkwerks "data" as verbatim. Paint is a fluid, ever changing variable that goes through changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and to freshness, to environmental effects. They were ok in Wisconsin, but is that the same weather in California or Texas, or NJ or Florida? If anything, you use it as a base, and apply your own experiences, your own conditions(like if you shoot the highest quality paint or the cheapest), and your own choices.

I really wish people stopped trying to put static results to paintball. I have shot dozens of different paint, and some shot great, some didn't, some even was good for a year then changed, or just consistently awful. I accept that i can not change how the paint shoots but try to adjust my style and my barrels. Some barrels work great, some don't. And in paintball, we all know that some day you shoot lasers never getting hit. Other days, you are a paint magnet that would be lucky to hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Yet cocker barrels will still be better than twistlocks just for the simple reason of availability in whatever size, style and length you want.

The questions you have raised about whether we can confidently generalize Punkworks's conclusions across different climates and brands/batches of paint are not without relevance, but these concerns are not good reasons to dismiss their research, either, and I think you do yourself a disservice by doing so...if that is what you're doing. I fear that many forum go-ers on AO and other sites are all too ready to dismiss Punkworks's findings, not because the conclusions are overly presumptive or because the data was poorly collected, but simply because cockerpunk is widely disliked as a person. I have no opinion about the guy one way or or the other. What I do care about is the research they did, which as far as I'm concerned was very well done.

Now if you truly feel that more research involving a greater variety of weather conditions (Punkworks did perform all their tests indoors to rule out any environmental variables that could skew the data) and more brands/batches of paint would be needed before a universally conclusive consensus on barrel accuracy could be reached, then I can respect that. But that doesn't mean that until then, we are therefore all entitled to our own facts regarding barrel performance. If you think that differences in barrel accuracy are possible with the right paint and weather conditions, then future research will first have to demonstrate it. Until then, it's best to follow the evidence that is available to you, even if one of the people responsible for said evidence is a total douche.

As far as people trying to put static results on paintball, I hope that they don't stop trying. It's good to ask questions, to test your hypotheses, to allow pier review for others to attempt to replicate your tests. The more research, the better. Sure, paintballs have a ton of tiny variables, but I think you're being a bit pessimistic about what good research can reveal.

[athomas]

I personally like Punkworks tests as well. I think they have great relevance. They capture a lot of real data. We could put a lot of variables onto different paint and barrels during testing. The tests would become very long and tedious if we rigorously tested for all of those variables. In most cases its not practical. In some cases, its not even possible to test for certain parameters in the environment where the test is being done. If we want real testing, it needs to be done in a lab controlled environment. Until then, we need guys like Cockerpuck to run tests so we at least have something that isn't just marketing spin.