** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[athomas]

...I used two of the small shims and the brass piece with one line and one dot. I am happy with the bolt's performance and sensitivity but I had to crank up the regulator about a full turn to get the FPS back up where it needed to be (is this normal?). There is a very slight air leak down the barrel. Do I remove a shim or two or do I need a different size brass item down the tube?....

Take out the shims. You shouldn't ever need them. They might be causing your leak down the barrel. If it still leaks down the barrel after you remove the shims, go to the next smaller carrier size, which is the 1.0 (1 line, no dots). Remember to use the same white powertube oring when changing carrier sizes. Its the oring tension you are adjusting.

When you install the level 10, the smaller bolt stem hole in the powertube starts the bolt off slower and also slows down the air release compared to a level 7 bolt. This reduces the velocity at the same chamber pressure. You need to increase the velocity setting to get the velocity back up to the proper setting. A stiffer bolt spring requires an even higher velocity setting. Its normal. The smaller hole in the carrier oring compared to the original powertube inside diameter, combined with increased tension of stiffer bolt springs, reduces the impact force of the bolt on the ball, which is the whole idea behind the level 10.

[Laku]

Much appreciated for pointed that out! I don't understand the logic behind the bolt spring though. Does this mean that it uses less air at the correct long spring setting vs the short spring setting as far has how high/low you have to adjust the regulator for the required FPS?

It means that the bolt moves the ball more gently to the barrel when using a stiffer spring. Depending on the spring stiffness the gun won't cycle below certain fps, lower the tension the lower the fps the gun will be able to cycle, but then the bolt won't be as gentle.

[Motrin870]

Much appreciated for pointed that out! I don't understand the logic behind the bolt spring though. Does this mean that it uses less air at the correct long spring setting vs the short spring setting as far has how high/low you have to adjust the regulator for the required FPS?

[Laku]

I replaced my stock bolt system with the level 10 (I am using a classic valve). I used two of the small shims and the brass piece with one line and one dot. I am happy with the bolt's performance and sensitivity but I had to crank up the regulator about a full turn to get the FPS back up where it needed to be (is this normal?). There is a very slight air leak down the barrel. Do I remove a shim or two or do I need a different size brass item down the tube? (sorry, not sure what it's called right meow). The size that I am using right now has one line and one dot.

You shouldn't need any shims. look at the quote two posts up. That tells you exactly what to do. Brass things are called carriers.

[Motrin870]

I replaced my stock bolt system with the level 10 (I am using a classic valve). I used two of the small shims and the brass piece with one line and one dot. I am happy with the bolt's performance and sensitivity but I had to crank up the regulator about a full turn to get the FPS back up where it needed to be (is this normal?). There is a very slight air leak down the barrel. Do I remove a shim or two or do I need a different size brass item down the tube? (sorry, not sure what it's called right meow). The size that I am using right now has one line and one dot.

[Jeremy Martin]

Perfect. Thank you gentlemen! It goes bang bang now.

may as well re-post this:

Level 10 tuning guide:

When tuning your level 10, remove all the shims from the powertube before starting. They don't affect the operation but they can cause false leaks which cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. Don't put them back when you are done. You shouldn't ever need them.

For carrier sizing:

Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the valve on a hard surface, the carrier should be loose enough to allow the bolt to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the orings that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

For spring adjustment:

You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definitely clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.

[Laku]

I have not. I have a tournament lock on the velocity adjuster so I know it hasn't moved. Does the install of the kit usually require a turn or two in of the velocity adjuster?

Yes. Depending on the spring you use. Gold needs smallest pressure increase, next is red and grey will need most.

Start with gold spring, and remove all the shims.

[Jeremy Martin]

did you turn the velocity up?

I have not. I have a tournament lock on the velocity adjuster so I know it hasn't moved.
Does the install of the kit usually require a turn or two in of the velocity adjuster?

did you turn the velocity up?

[Jeremy Martin]

I have a classic valve with a level 7 that shot great a couple of weeks ago. Installed the level 10 kit with the small/medium o-ring carrier, two shims, and the red spring. Now I can't get gun to fire. I have pressure on the sear, just no bang bang. Help me automag community, you're my only hope.

[athomas]

After your last comment, it dawned on me that I'm using a new tank (I just traded my 50/45 for a 68/45). I opened her up today and, surely enough, all the shims have been removed. I'm probably getting an input pressure of about 550 PSI.

If the tank output is low, it will cause your problems. Its a known issue with level 10 valves due to the orings not sealing properly when the operating pressure is near the input pressure. It needs the higher pressure differential to push the oring against the sealing surface.

[Billz804]

Thank you again for all the help.

After your last comment, it dawned on me that I'm using a new tank (I just traded my 50/45 for a 68/45). I opened her up today and, surely enough, all the shims have been removed. I'm probably getting an input pressure of about 550 PSI.

I'm going to find out how to order some more shims from Ninja, and then get back at it.

I appreciate all your effort!

[athomas]

Is the issue with the trigger rod that it can be too far from the trigger, or too close? Mine is about 1/32 away from the back of the trigger when I hold it against the safety, and I can't screw it in any further. Maybe I need to try and take some off..?

As long as there is a gap, it should be fine. The gap means the on-off can open without the trigger impeding it.

The fact that you can feel pressure on the trigger means the bolt is reset. Otherwise the sear would hit the bolt and there wouldn't be any force on the trigger rod to push against the trigger.

What is the output pressure of your tank? Is it working properly so that you are getting the proper pressure?

[athomas]

Okay, when I pull the trigger I get a first shot, and then significant drop off after that. When I hold the trigger in after a shot, the bolt does not reset, and after about 3-4 seconds I can hear a hiss down the barrel. I have to manually reset the bolt to take another shot.

So this seems to indicate a bad seal somewhere in the valve? I replaced the Reg Valve Pin Oring, but nothing changed. If the On/Off oring you're referring to is the one that sits on top of the On/Off, then I've replaced that one too.

The space between my trigger and sear is minimal, but I can't screw the rod in any further.

You should move this over to its own thread, since it is getting more involved and potentially falling outside the parameters of a simple level 10 problem.

When you do hold the trigger in, do it for longer than 3 - 4 sec. Hold it in for a minute or two. Does the hiss persist, or does it eventually stop, or does it get worst? The easiest way to diagnose this is to air up without the bolt as I mentioned before. That way it totally eliminates the bolt and only evaluates the valve regulator and on-off.