** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[Nittany77]

Backing Washer

I recently purchased a used X Valve. It's in great condition, but it was leaking down the barrel, so I assumed that i needed to replace the o-rings. My question is about the backing washer. When i disassembled the power tube I noticed that there were 2 washers behind the carrier. I don't see anything about ever using more than one, but it seems like the carrier is not tightened down when I screw on the tip with only one. I removed the little black o-ring (just as test since it provides enough friction to hold the carrier in place) and I can hear the carrier rattling around inside the tube, like the tip is not long enough to push down on it. I'm not using any spacers yet. It seems to me, given my understanding of how this works, is that the tip pushes down on the carrier and by adding shims it squeezes the o-ring more, making a tighter fit. Should the carrier just be "floating" inside the tube. If tip doesn't even come close to the carrier the shims would seemingly do nothing. With 2 backing washers the carrier seems like is no longer loose, but I'm not sure if this is correct. I hope this makes sense. Please let me know if i can clarify anything. Thanks!

EDIT: I did some more searching around and it seems my understanding of what the shims do might not be correct.

[athomas]

Take your oring down to the store. They can match it.

The regular level 7 bolt spring will work fine until you get a chance to purchase a longer level 10 spring. Contact Tunaman here on AO. He probably has some he can sell you.

[Ando]

They're out of the silver one too? Ouch!!!

[stevewar]

It is probably the correct oring, but it might be on the large size. There have been cases where some of the orings were a little thicker than normal. This means a larger carrier size is needed so that the larger outside diameter doesn't force the inner diameter to be too small. Most orings that you get from AGD now are tighter in their tolerance specs so they rarely arrive requiring larger carrier sizes.

You have the option of getting a couple of extra larger carrier sizes, or putting a new oring in. If you don't have any other carriers at all, then you do need to get a variety of carrier sizes anyway. A new oring will probably be smaller, which will fit one of the smaller carrier sizes, so you probably won't need a carrier range past 2.0 or 2.5, but you may need the smaller ones down to 0. If you don't have any orings of the proper size, you should get some anyway (including a complete kit). You never know when a piece of dirt is going to get lodged in one of the orings and cause an intermittent leak. It is usually just a quick clean but sometimes it requires an oring change and you don't want to be without the proper ones for you mag in a time of need.

Thanks again for your time.. I ordered a spacer kit, and a xvalve kit. AGD is out of stock on level X bolt springs. if you have some, I'd love to purchase from you.

Oh, and I was wondering if you know the o-ring specs? There is a place not far from my house that all the do is o-rings. they might have one I can pick up until my kit arrives.

[athomas]

So I messed around with the carrier sizing you were talking about. The 2.0 carrier and the o-ring I have installed are much too tight. There is what I would consider a significant amount of friction between the bolt stem and the o-ring. I don't have any other carriers, so I'm going to order the kit, but this sounds to me like the o-ring that is installed (I bought the x-valve from someone here on AO) might not be the correct one?

It is probably the correct oring, but it might be on the large size. There have been cases where some of the orings were a little thicker than normal. This means a larger carrier size is needed so that the larger outside diameter doesn't force the inner diameter to be too small. Most orings that you get from AGD now are tighter in their tolerance specs so they rarely arrive requiring larger carrier sizes.

You have the option of getting a couple of extra larger carrier sizes, or putting a new oring in. If you don't have any other carriers at all, then you do need to get a variety of carrier sizes anyway. A new oring will probably be smaller, which will fit one of the smaller carrier sizes, so you probably won't need a carrier range past 2.0 or 2.5, but you may need the smaller ones down to 0. If you don't have any orings of the proper size, you should get some anyway (including a complete kit). You never know when a piece of dirt is going to get lodged in one of the orings and cause an intermittent leak. It is usually just a quick clean but sometimes it requires an oring change and you don't want to be without the proper ones for you mag in a time of need.

[stevewar]

10" is just about perfect for a classic level 7 valve. If the porting isn't in a stepped part of the barrel, then additional length past the porting will act like additional length adding friction without forward acceleration. If the extra porting is only a few inches and the porting is small, then it acts like a fraction of the additional length. If the porting is stepped and large enough, then there isn't really much difference in length past the porting.

We don't know the exact length for best efficiency of a level 10 bolt setup. It could be shorter due to a higher initial impulse, or it could be longer due to a slower release of air after the initial impulse.

So I messed around with the carrier sizing you were talking about. The 2.0 carrier and the o-ring I have installed are much too tight. There is what I would consider a significant amount of friction between the bolt stem and the o-ring. I don't have any other carriers, so I'm going to order the kit, but this sounds to me like the o-ring that is installed (I bought the x-valve from someone here on AO) might not be the correct one?

[athomas]

Thanks athomas, I have been reading tons of your posts. I read Tom's tech tip on barrel length, and he suggested for the classic valve that 8 - 10 inches was the optimal barrel length. I'm using an OTP barrel and have a couple of different tips, but the one I'm currently using has the first port is at exactly 10 inches. Is that tool long?

I currently only have the gold bolt spring. I had the red one somewhere, but who knows my wife probably thought it was junk. Anyhow, I will play arround with the advice you gave me on turning down the velocity as well as the trigger position.

Thanks for taking the time!
-Steve

10" is just about perfect for a classic level 7 valve. If the porting isn't in a stepped part of the barrel, then additional length past the porting will act like additional length adding friction without forward acceleration. If the extra porting is only a few inches and the porting is small, then it acts like a fraction of the additional length. If the porting is stepped and large enough, then there isn't really much difference in length past the porting.

We don't know the exact length for best efficiency of a level 10 bolt setup. It could be shorter due to a higher initial impulse, or it could be longer due to a slower release of air after the initial impulse.

[stevewar]

Usually you will get full auto when you add too many shims in the ULT, but it is usually accompanied with the bolt stick that you are experiencing. It's just that you are only getting the bolt stick. Don't worry about it. Its normal. You have the correct setup.

I'm surprised you have to use a large 2.0 carrier size though. Usually, the orings require a smaller size. I wouldn't worry about that either if it works. That's why they make the 2.0 size.

Dry firing does use more air. Normally when the bolt returns and resets, there is residual pressure remaining in the chamber. However, because there is no back pressure due to a ball in the chamber, firing the gun completely empties the chamber. It will use 25% more air. If you want more efficiency when testing, put a barrel blocking device in the end of the barrel. That will create back pressure and prevent the chamber from completely emptying. Of course, it will work better if the barrel is unported. Another trick, it to lower the velocity setting to a value just high enough to fire the gun. You will still get the function without the extra use of air. It will change the reactivity a tiny bit, but at least you won't be chewing through your air.

For physically finding the sweet spot it takes a bit of practice. Hold your finger as high on the trigger as you can. This gives the best leverage to push your finger forward following a shot when the full tank regulator pressure is pushing on the top of the on-off pin. Pull the trigger with just enough force to fire the gun and try to maintain that force. If you do it right, the trigger will oscillate due to the change in force between the chamber pressure acting on the small diameter of the on-off pin and the higher pressure acting on the larger diameter of the top of the on-off pin.

For gun set, you will want to use the shortest bolt spring you can get a way with, the most efficient barrel length, and the lowest velocity setting that you can use. If you normally shoot at 295fps, use 280. You won't notice the distance change that much, but you will use a lot less air, and there will be a greater force differential due to a lower pressure requirement in the chamber. The optimum barrel length also allows you to achieve your working velocity at a much lower pressure. The shortest bolt spring allows you to use a lower pressure to achieve your working velocity. Add all three together and you get a more efficient mag with better reactivity.

Thanks athomas, I have been reading tons of your posts. I read Tom's tech tip on barrel length, and he suggested for the classic valve that 8 - 10 inches was the optimal barrel length. I'm using an OTP barrel and have a couple of different tips, but the one I'm currently using has the first port is at exactly 10 inches. Is that tool long?

I currently only have the gold bolt spring. I had the red one somewhere, but who knows my wife probably thought it was junk. Anyhow, I will play arround with the advice you gave me on turning down the velocity as well as the trigger position.

Thanks for taking the time!
-Steve

[athomas]

sweet tip, thanks!

My setup right now has intelliframe, classic rail, classic sear, ule body, xvalve, ult kit, centerflag 4500 / 68 set to 1200 psi output.

I have 2.0 carrier and 2 level 10 shims installed at this point, with the gold spring. I don't have a chrono so I have no idea what velocity it's hitting right now.

I have 5 shims in my ULT. If I install a 6th shim on the ult, a slight leak starts, and firing doesn't make it go away. I'm wondering since I can't get the gun to go full auto if I'm doing something wrong in tuning my ULT. I have oiled the heck out of everything using Tri-Flow.

Also, does "dry firing" use way more air than when there is paint in the gun? The reason I ask is that while trying to tune my trigger, the gun eats air like crazy.

Anyway, my main question is, can somebody explain the technique of physically finding the sweet spot to get reactivity?

Usually you will get full auto when you add too many shims in the ULT, but it is usually accompanied with the bolt stick that you are experiencing. It's just that you are only getting the bolt stick. Don't worry about it. Its normal. You have the correct setup.

I'm surprised you have to use a large 2.0 carrier size though. Usually, the orings require a smaller size. I wouldn't worry about that either if it works. That's why they make the 2.0 size.

Dry firing does use more air. Normally when the bolt returns and resets, there is residual pressure remaining in the chamber. However, because there is no back pressure due to a ball in the chamber, firing the gun completely empties the chamber. It will use 25% more air. If you want more efficiency when testing, put a barrel blocking device in the end of the barrel. That will create back pressure and prevent the chamber from completely emptying. Of course, it will work better if the barrel is unported. Another trick, it to lower the velocity setting to a value just high enough to fire the gun. You will still get the function without the extra use of air. It will change the reactivity a tiny bit, but at least you won't be chewing through your air.

For physically finding the sweet spot it takes a bit of practice. Hold your finger as high on the trigger as you can. This gives the best leverage to push your finger forward following a shot when the full tank regulator pressure is pushing on the top of the on-off pin. Pull the trigger with just enough force to fire the gun and try to maintain that force. If you do it right, the trigger will oscillate due to the change in force between the chamber pressure acting on the small diameter of the on-off pin and the higher pressure acting on the larger diameter of the top of the on-off pin.

For gun set, you will want to use the shortest bolt spring you can get a way with, the most efficient barrel length, and the lowest velocity setting that you can use. If you normally shoot at 295fps, use 280. You won't notice the distance change that much, but you will use a lot less air, and there will be a greater force differential due to a lower pressure requirement in the chamber. The optimum barrel length also allows you to achieve your working velocity at a much lower pressure. The shortest bolt spring allows you to use a lower pressure to achieve your working velocity. Add all three together and you get a more efficient mag with better reactivity.

[stevewar]

How to find the sweet spot.

Use your field strip screw. Put it down in your PT, add a tad bit of pressure and give it a half turn then pull out.

sweet tip, thanks!

My setup right now has intelliframe, classic rail, classic sear, ule body, xvalve, ult kit, centerflag 4500 / 68 set to 1200 psi output.

I have 2.0 carrier and 2 level 10 shims installed at this point, with the gold spring. I don't have a chrono so I have no idea what velocity it's hitting right now.

I have 5 shims in my ULT. If I install a 6th shim on the ult, a slight leak starts, and firing doesn't make it go away. I'm wondering since I can't get the gun to go full auto if I'm doing something wrong in tuning my ULT. I have oiled the heck out of everything using Tri-Flow.

Also, does "dry firing" use way more air than when there is paint in the gun? The reason I ask is that while trying to tune my trigger, the gun eats air like crazy.

Anyway, my main question is, can somebody explain the technique of physically finding the sweet spot to get reactivity?

[Ando]

Use your field strip screw. Put it down in your PT, add a tad bit of pressure and give it a half turn then pull out.

[stevewar]

carrier stuck in power tube

Hi All,

I've tried everything I can think of to get the carrier to come out. Any tips here?

Thanks,
Steve

[athomas]

I just installed my Level 10 bolt to replace a Level 7 in my Emag, did AGD redo the packaging of the Level 10 kit?

I did not have the full assortment of brass spacers and only had two springs. The instructions say to use the 2.0 spacer but did not have one? Just wondering before I contact the company I purchased it from or AGD. (package was sealed with the White AGD label)

Most always use the smaller carriers around 0.5 or 1. The 1.5 is large for most people. In extreme cases a 2.0 is needed but it is quite often easier to use another oring which will probably be smaller and require a smaller carrier anyway.

Don't follow the AGD instructions exactly. We have found a few tweaks over the years that negate some of the original thoughts that are in the original instructions.

Remove all the level 7 powertube parts. Install the backing washer in the powertube. Then install the carrier with white oring inside it. The oring should be facing the rear of the valve. Don't install and shims in your powertube. If they are there, remove them. Install the powertube tip. Then install your short bolt spring onto the bolt and insert the bolt into the front of the powertube.

For carrier sizing:

Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the bolt, the carrier should be loose enough to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the orings that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

For spring adjustment:

You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definately clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.

[Tunaman]

I just installed my Level 10 bolt to replace a Level 7 in my Emag, did AGD redo the packaging of the Level 10 kit?

I did not have the full assortment of brass spacers and only had two springs. The instructions say to use the 2.0 spacer but did not have one? Just wondering before I contact the company I purchased it from or AGD. (package was sealed with the White AGD label)

Yes. They changed it. 2 springs and 4 carriers only

[Sc0]

I just installed my Level 10 bolt to replace a Level 7 in my Emag, did AGD redo the packaging of the Level 10 kit?

I did not have the full assortment of brass spacers and only had two springs. The instructions say to use the 2.0 spacer but did not have one? Just wondering before I contact the company I purchased it from or AGD. (package was sealed with the White AGD label)