** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[athomas]

getting closer i think. with the crossfire tank it doesnt leak when I hold the trigger but instead it fires once or full auto and i feel alot of springy pressure on the trigger and as high or low that I turn the velocity it does nothing till I take it apart. this time I see the oring that sits in the valve pin cup jammed into the reg opening (the recessed part big enough for the oring.)

Where on the valve is this oring loose.

See pic.

<a href="http://s227.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/athomasan/?action=view&current=retrovalveinternaldiagram.jpg " target="_blank"><img src="http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/athomasan/retrovalveinternaldiagram.jpg" border="0" alt="retro valve internal diagram"></a>

[redfireant3]

getting closer i think. with the crossfire tank it doesnt leak when I hold the trigger but instead it fires once or full auto and i feel alot of springy pressure on the trigger and as high or low that I turn the velocity it does nothing till I take it apart. this time I see the oring that sits in the valve pin cup jammed into the reg opening (the recessed part big enough for the oring.)

[redfireant3]

ok, will hit the proshop with my old 48/3k crossfire tomorrow and if he lets me straight connect the scuba to the valve hehehehehh

[athomas]

how bout this #2 says turn reg nut till it shoots or vents out back

http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/debug.shtml#g3

what if my tank doesnt output enough for an xvalve but barely enough for a minimag valve....?
im using a 68/45 with a gen1 myth reg outputs 650psi still if it wasnt enough, when i run the reg nut out to the line the pin doesnt "make" it shoot till i slowly turn it up and i hear a click in the valve..... then i pull the trigger and bolt stick.

Level 10 bolts operate at a higher chamber pressure. That is probably part or most of the problem, especially if the tank output is even a bit lower than it should be due to the regulator spring weakening with use.

[athomas]

rail bushing flush with rail

yes carrier o-ring, facing white delrin oring, facing dump chamber.
how bout this #2 says turn reg nut till it shoots or vents out back

http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/debug.shtml#g3

what if my tank doesnt output enough for an xvalve but barely enough for a minimag valve....?
im using a 68/45 with a gen1 myth reg outputs 650psi still if it wasnt enough, when i run the reg nut out to the line the pin doesnt "make" it shoot till i slowly turn it up and i hear a click in the valve..... then i pull the trigger and bolt stick.

With it put together and aired up without a barrel, hold the bolt all the way back with a squeegie or something solid. Does it stop leaking or change the leak? The leak should go away, since the bolt will be totally plugging the airway out the front.

[redfireant3]

rail bushing flush with rail

yes carrier o-ring, facing white delrin oring, facing dump chamber.
how bout this #2 says turn reg nut till it shoots or vents out back

http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/debug.shtml#g3

what if my tank doesnt output enough for an xvalve but barely enough for a minimag valve....?
im using a 68/45 with a gen1 myth reg outputs 650psi still if it wasnt enough, when i run the reg nut out to the line the pin doesnt "make" it shoot till i slowly turn it up and i hear a click in the valve..... then i pull the trigger and bolt stick.

[athomas]

ok got the kit in and boy was that reg valve pin fun... the top on/off oring is really really tight in the outer ring and once i do get them to press into each other it holds the on/off pin so tight it wont charge the pin at all if you dont angle the gun down so the sear holds the bolt. im sure i got the right sizes, the oring IN the on/off is super tiny and the top on/off is just a little tighter than the pin and the outer on on that is just big enough to press in the top on/off oring? also i have been using Air Tool oil, i always have for my PB markers.

still, its like after the on/off pin is lifted the valve wont stop dumping. besides the on/off pin im guessing what seals off the dump chamber is the reg valve pin? does that crown washer cup seal the back of the valve pin after a trigger pull??

here are more pics after the o-ring change. the only ones i didnt change was carrier o-ring, power tube nut and lower threaded on/off o-ring. PLEASE tell me if there are wrong parts?

Bolt & carrier & NEW spring

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01207.jpg

on/off & powertube

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01208.jpg

regulator

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01209.jpg

sear is still good and i have no problem shooting the orginal minimag valve.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01211.jpg

extra o-rings? i know 2 are carrier o-rings and one might be powertube nut. but the tiny one?
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01210.jpg

The on-off orings should be snug but movable on the pin.

Even if the regulator seat oring fails, the only path for the air is past the on-off pin. The other paths to the chamber are 1) blocked by two orings on the regulator valve pin assembly and 2) blocked by both the regulator seat oring and the regulator pin oring at the other end of the regulator valve pin assembly. You would need two orings to fail in series in both scenarios. Then, you would also get severe overpressure and a pressure release out the back.

Is the white level 10 carrier oring facing the backing washer in the powertube?

Is the rail bushing in place?

And don't worry about the powertube tip oring. All it does is keep the tip from vibrating off. It doesn't seal anything.

[redfireant3]

ok got the kit in and boy was that reg valve pin fun... the top on/off oring is really really tight in the outer ring and once i do get them to press into each other it holds the on/off pin so tight it wont charge the pin at all if you dont angle the gun down so the sear holds the bolt. im sure i got the right sizes, the oring IN the on/off is super tiny and the top on/off is just a little tighter than the pin and the outer on on that is just big enough to press in the top on/off oring? also i have been using Air Tool oil, i always have for my PB markers.

still, its like after the on/off pin is lifted the valve wont stop dumping. besides the on/off pin im guessing what seals off the dump chamber is the reg valve pin? does that crown washer cup seal the back of the valve pin after a trigger pull??

here are more pics after the o-ring change. the only ones i didnt change was carrier o-ring, power tube nut and lower threaded on/off o-ring. PLEASE tell me if there are wrong parts?

Bolt & carrier & NEW spring

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01207.jpg

on/off & powertube

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01208.jpg

regulator

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01209.jpg

sear is still good and i have no problem shooting the orginal minimag valve.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01211.jpg

extra o-rings? i know 2 are carrier o-rings and one might be powertube nut. but the tiny one?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01210.jpg

[athomas]

ordered a new gold spring and o-ring kit. ill try again next week. what's suppossed to happen when you hold the trigger fully (in theroy) it works with my mini mag, I get that but on an X you have a top opening and a middle dump opening.

Except for the regulator, the valves operate in exactly the same manner. The middle hole part way up the on-off hole is pressure feedback only. It does not supply any air to the front chamber. The air still gets shut off by the on-off pin. When you hold the trigger, the gun should fire and then nothing until you release the trigger. With a level 10 bolt you will get a bit of seeping air for a couple of seconds when you hold the trigger. That's because the oring sealing points aren't held tight by the reduced air pressure.

[redfireant3]

ordered a new gold spring and o-ring kit. ill try again next week. what's suppossed to happen when you hold the trigger fully (in theroy) it works with my mini mag, I get that but on an X you have a top opening and a middle dump opening.

[Ando]

I made a mistake on your valve. I was thinking yours was an older retro valve, not the X-valve that it is. I don't know why. I guess I was thinking about another valve at the time.

Hehe...That happens to me quite often when I'm trying to help 3-4 people at a time

Pull the lvl 10 off and install a lvl 7 or another lvl 10 on the X. Best way to trouble shoot is by completely removing the suspected problem.

If it continues, you might have something wrong further down the reg or your setup (aftermarket body/rail combo, trigger sear spacing, worn sear or bolt).

Try a different valve on the marker (preferably another X valve) and see if it's having the same issues, swapping out your lvl 10 with another will rule out a bolt issue if it's still sticking.

Are you using this valve on a Micromag body?

*wait..... could it be my reg/piston? since it wouldnt fire at all when i used the long spring?

Are you having leak issues out the back when you turn up the velocity anymore then what it's at?

[athomas]

these are the springs I have i put the old level 7 for color compairison

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01205.jpg

I tried both of the O-ring sets and they do the same thing
the top on/off oring you mean this one or the one IN the on/off?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01206.jpg

as far as the marker/proper rail and body alignment the minimag level 7 valve works great on this marker and the old minimag body/rail and I do have the rail bushing in.

I made a mistake on your valve. I was thinking yours was an older retro valve, not the X-valve that it is. I don't know why. I guess I was thinking about another valve at the time. Yours is definately not an older valve as I was referring to earlier.

Yours does have the two orings on the top as shown in your pics. They are the ones I was talking about. Disregard that I was referring to a single top oring design, although dirt or a defect in the smaller oring could still have the same effect.

For the springs, I have never seen a black one, but it is definately the right size to be a good level 7 bolt spring. The other two are the middle red spring and the equivalent cut spring that originally shipped as a middle spring. The cut spring is just a long silver spring with a coil cut off. The cut spring will only function if the flat end is against the bolt to keep it from twisting.

Take the valve apart and do a complete cleaning of all internals, even though you may have just replaced all the orings. Clean and inspect all the orings as well. Just because they are new doesn't mean they are defect free. This includes the on-off, regulator section, and back section of the valve. A piece of dirt can cause all sorts of issues.

What is the condition of the sear tip? Wear at the tip could cause leaking due to the bolt sitting farther forward.

[redfireant3]

these are the springs I have i put the old level 7 for color compairison

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01205.jpg

I tried both of the O-ring sets and they do the same thing
the top on/off oring you mean this one or the one IN the on/off?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y164/redfireant3/DSC01206.jpg

as far as the marker/proper rail and body alignment the minimag level 7 valve works great on this marker and the old minimag body/rail and I do have the rail bushing in.

[athomas]

ok no shims and a dot on the carrier is .5 i aired up pulling trigger and every size leaked till i removed air and aired up w/o pulling trigger:
2.5 1 shot, leak down barrel, bolt stick
2.0 1 shot, sorta leak down barrel, Boltstick
1.5 1 shot, Boltstick
1.0 1 shot, Boltstick
.5 1 shot, Boltstick
0 1 shot, Boltstick
I used my digital caliper and just held the measurement for my gold spring is 1.80/1.82 in give or take coils.

so, why wont my bolt return?

*wait..... could it be my reg/piston? since it wouldnt fire at all when i used the long spring?

The silver spring requires a lot of chamber pressure. You may have to turn the velocity up quite high for it to work. Some older systems may not have the adjustment available. I wouldn't worry about it.

It seems like 1.5 might be your carrier size.

That fact that it leaked when you aired up the gun and held the trigger is a good indication that it is on-off related. If the on-off top oring is leaking, it could cause bolt stick issues as well. It is a small whitish urethane oring in the indentation inside the on-off hole of the valve.

Is your rail bushing in place?

[redfireant3]

ok no shims and a dot on the carrier is .5 i aired up pulling trigger and every size leaked till i removed air and aired up w/o pulling trigger:
2.5 1 shot, leak down barrel, bolt stick
2.0 1 shot, sorta leak down barrel, Boltstick
1.5 1 shot, Boltstick
1.0 1 shot, Boltstick
.5 1 shot, Boltstick
0 1 shot, Boltstick
I used my digital caliper and just held the measurement for my gold spring is 1.80/1.82 in give or take coils.

so, why wont my bolt return?

*wait..... could it be my reg/piston? since it wouldnt fire at all when i used the long spring?