** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[athomas]

I played the spydermag yesterday and I didn't chop but I still got a stuck bolt twice, when firing fast. I spent the rest of the day purposely firing slow and got no more sticking, but I'm definitely going to switch to the lvl7 bolt. Hope you figure out the chopping thing,
Vin

It is possible that the dwell parameters are changing when you are rapid firing. Under rapid fire conditions the solenoid may not be able to stay fully engaged for the full duration of the dwell period if the power supply can't maintain full power to the circuit. The smaller battery used on the spyder mag doesn't have a big capacity for instantaneous current draw. That is why a large capacitor is used with the board to help maintain a reserve of power to help take some of the power load off the battery.

Do you have a ULT installed? Maybe you need to adjust the shims in it. If not, then you probably need a ULT to reduce the load on the solenoid.

[vin]

Cool

I thought the same thing, but I use a six pack of AA batteries and had the same problem. It does have a ULT too.
Thanks for the great idea. What do you think of using the lvl7?
Cheer,
Vin

[athomas]

I thought the same thing, but I use a six pack of AA batteries and had the same problem. It does have a ULT too.
Thanks for the great idea. What do you think of using the lvl7?
Cheer,
Vin

What is your dwell set to? Try 15ms and work down from there in 1 second increments and see if it stops sticking.

Try removing a shim from the ULT.

[vin]

I never tried removing a UTL shimm- I'll try both, Thanks!
What do you think of using the lvl7?
Vin

[athomas]

I never tried removing a UTL shimm- I'll try both, Thanks!
What do you think of using the lvl7?
Vin

With eyes, it will work fine. I like to use the level 10 in all setups just for the added benefits of antichop for all occasions that you may need it, even if the eyes don't work and you have to disable them.

[muskratjim]

iseam to have only two carrier options one line and then one dot before my oring goes bad and it does that about every 2000 shots or so is this normal. other than that my level 10 works great. thanks jim





rockin' a mag since '91

[athomas]

iseam to have only two carrier options one line and then one dot before my oring goes bad and it does that about every 2000 shots or so is this normal. other than that my level 10 works great. thanks jim

What do you mean by goes bad? What is happening to the condition of the oring? Explain your level 10 setup and the symptoms of your failure.

They usually last quite a long time. My level 10 carrier oring probably has over 150000 shots on it.

[vin]

I'm good

Well, I finally got my SpyderMag running sweet.
I just shot it out a case and it stopped leaking.
Thanks for all the help!
Vin

[muskratjim]

my level ten starts with a new oring and the one line carrier, after about 2000 or so shots it begins to leak down the barrel so i switch to the one dot carrier.(i belive that to be the next step down) after about another 2000-3000 shot it begins to leak also soi switch to the blank carrier and maybe get another 2000 before i have to start over with a new oring and the first carrier. all other carriers with a new oring installed leak imeditatly so my first option is the one line carrier. hope that explains whats going wrong with my level ten, or is this normal later jim



rockin' the mag since '91

[dreadpirate]

Trying to retune lvl 10 w/ ULT

Ok, I am currently using a RT Pro ULE which came with the lvl X bolt preinstalled and tuned, as well as the ULT. I have installed a palmer stabilizer, which is still breaking in, and so tends to settle around 750 psi during use despite being reset to 850 psi whenever I have the chance. I use a crossfire 68ci 4500 psi tank preregulated to 850-900 psi.
My initial issue was bolt stick, where anytime it was not extremely oiled (ie, six drops in the ASA before every individual game), the trigger would fail to reseat.
I disassembled the bolt, and, following the initial installation instructions on my CD, found that the shortest spring had been installed, which is designed for ~250 fps, and I use ~280 fps exculsively, so I installed the red spring, which I -think- is the medium spring? I also found that the spacer preinstalled was way too small (one dot), and had a small amount of black buildup on the brass side, which I disregarded for the moment, as it did not seem to be in the inside diameter of the oring. I went up two sizes (to one line and one dot) to the size that seemed to slide easily over the pin, but not slide on its own with gravity. I reoiled only the part called out in the manual, namely the black o-ring around the carrier. I kept the two shims originally installed since I never exhibit leaking down the barrel as far as I can tell.
Testing the changes is tough, since I live in dense suburbs where there are no convenient open areas to set up my own chrono, or stores nearby with indoor ranges to test it. I left the velocity adjust as set before changing the spring and dryfired the gun rapidly a few times, with my ASA leaking(it regularly damages tank orings when I remove the tank.) The results were similar but not quite the same as before. This time when i lost trigger pressure, I would hear a faint hissing noise before the trigger would click back into place. I also noted a definite change in the gun noise, to a softer, less sharp pop, I am guessing due to the longer spring. The response trigger also seemed a little less crisp, again, I think, due to the smaller period the bolt is spending open with the longer spring. Is the present issue likely to correct itself once I adjust the velocity to 280-290 fps and get a tight tank seal, or does it indicate a separate issue? I haven't touched the ULT's setup for fear that it would even further complicate troubleshooting, so all I can tell about it is there is one shim leftover in the plastic bag along with a couple spare (I hope) orings.

[athomas]

my level ten starts with a new oring and the one line carrier, after about 2000 or so shots it begins to leak down the barrel so i switch to the one dot carrier.(i belive that to be the next step down) after about another 2000-3000 shot it begins to leak also soi switch to the blank carrier and maybe get another 2000 before i have to start over with a new oring and the first carrier. all other carriers with a new oring installed leak imeditatly so my first option is the one line carrier. hope that explains whats going wrong with my level ten, or is this normal later jim



rockin' the mag since '91

Good explaination. I don't know what might be causing the problem though.

Try removing all shims from your level 10 when you set it up. See if that helps. Also, take piece of fine grit sand paper (400 grit or higher) and smooth the small part of the bolt stem incase there is an imperfection.

[athomas]

Ok, I am currently using a RT Pro ULE which came with the lvl X bolt preinstalled and tuned, as well as the ULT. I have installed a palmer stabilizer, which is still breaking in, and so tends to settle around 750 psi during use despite being reset to 850 psi whenever I have the chance. I use a crossfire 68ci 4500 psi tank preregulated to 850-900 psi.
My initial issue was bolt stick, where anytime it was not extremely oiled (ie, six drops in the ASA before every individual game), the trigger would fail to reseat.
I disassembled the bolt, and, following the initial installation instructions on my CD, found that the shortest spring had been installed, which is designed for ~250 fps, and I use ~280 fps exculsively, so I installed the red spring, which I -think- is the medium spring? I also found that the spacer preinstalled was way too small (one dot), and had a small amount of black buildup on the brass side, which I disregarded for the moment, as it did not seem to be in the inside diameter of the oring. I went up two sizes (to one line and one dot) to the size that seemed to slide easily over the pin, but not slide on its own with gravity. I reoiled only the part called out in the manual, namely the black o-ring around the carrier. I kept the two shims originally installed since I never exhibit leaking down the barrel as far as I can tell.
Testing the changes is tough, since I live in dense suburbs where there are no convenient open areas to set up my own chrono, or stores nearby with indoor ranges to test it. I left the velocity adjust as set before changing the spring and dryfired the gun rapidly a few times, with my ASA leaking(it regularly damages tank orings when I remove the tank.) The results were similar but not quite the same as before. This time when i lost trigger pressure, I would hear a faint hissing noise before the trigger would click back into place. I also noted a definite change in the gun noise, to a softer, less sharp pop, I am guessing due to the longer spring. The response trigger also seemed a little less crisp, again, I think, due to the smaller period the bolt is spending open with the longer spring. Is the present issue likely to correct itself once I adjust the velocity to 280-290 fps and get a tight tank seal, or does it indicate a separate issue? I haven't touched the ULT's setup for fear that it would even further complicate troubleshooting, so all I can tell about it is there is one shim leftover in the plastic bag along with a couple spare (I hope) orings.

First thing to do is get rid of the stabilizer. Each regulator should have at least 200psi of pressure difference in order to maintain good flow response. A level 10 can operate up around 550psi so the output from the stabilizer would have to be higher than 750psi. In turn, the output from your bottle would have to be higher than 950psi. Most bottles operate between 800 and 850psi. Your best bet is to remove the stabilizer. The mag, as with most guns, only requires two regulators (mag valve reg and bottle reg) for good stability anyway.

It sounds like you are still getting bolt stick with your new setup. Try the next larger carrier size. Remove the shims to make sure they don't interfer and cause any leaking with the bigger carrier. You can put them back in later after you determine that the carrier size is correct and working properly.

You are correct in putting the red spring in place. It will be softer on paint but it will accentuate any sticking issues that may be present just like you are experiencing now. Once you find the correct sizes and settings, the red spring will work very well. Using the red spring, you will have to increase the velocity setting to bring the gun back up to the proper velocity. Using the same velocity setting as with the small spring, you will starve the gun for air and it may not shoot properly.

[chettacheez]

Lvl 10 bolt spring problem

I have an early X-valve which came with my gun and it will only fire with the gold lvl 10 spring. If I put the red in and raise the velocity it will start to vent out the velocity adjustment hole.

Im positive I need a new regulator piston assy, but how do I go about installing it?

[athomas]

I have an early X-valve which came with my gun and it will only fire with the gold lvl 10 spring. If I put the red in and raise the velocity it will start to vent out the velocity adjustment hole.

Im positive I need a new regulator piston assy, but how do I go about installing it?

Remove the velocity adjuster from the back of the gun. Slide the regulator piston assembly out the back and insert the new one in its place.

[dreadpirate]

First thing to do is get rid of the stabilizer. Each regulator should have at least 200psi of pressure difference in order to maintain good flow response. A level 10 can operate up around 550psi so the output from the stabilizer would have to be higher than 750psi. In turn, the output from your bottle would have to be higher than 950psi. Most bottles operate between 800 and 850psi. Your best bet is to remove the stabilizer. The mag, as with most guns, only requires two regulators (mag valve reg and bottle reg) for good stability anyway.

It sounds like you are still getting bolt stick with your new setup. Try the next larger carrier size. Remove the shims to make sure they don't interfer and cause any leaking with the bigger carrier. You can put them back in later after you determine that the carrier size is correct and working properly.

You are correct in putting the red spring in place. It will be softer on paint but it will accentuate any sticking issues that may be present just like you are experiencing now. Once you find the correct sizes and settings, the red spring will work very well. Using the red spring, you will have to increase the velocity setting to bring the gun back up to the proper velocity. Using the same velocity setting as with the small spring, you will starve the gun for air and it may not shoot properly.

Alright, well, once I can get someplace with a range, I shall have to play around with all that again. What about oiling, is it possible I simply failed to oil sufficiently while putting it back together?
As far as the stabilizer goes, the manual that came with the gun says 750 psi supply pressure is ideal, otherwise if it is to high, rapidfire shots will be hot, due to the friction created by the quick recharge, which is problem I've experienced once before. Chronoing in at 260 fps, I was having accuracy problems at the time, but when I shot a quick burst, I put a very hot, three shot grouping the size of a gold dollar right over a guy's kidney from behind and just about got ejected from the field. I -have- noticed that the stabilizer's pressure tends to hunt somewhat during play though. I'll start at 750-800 and partway through the day, it will rise to 850 and then drop again. Ah well, if it won't work, I have been looking to add one to my old Spyder Basic, I hear they work miracles for CO2 guns. And besides, its at an age where it attracts almost more attention on the field than my automag ever will, hehe.