** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

[Plazmic]

Alright, well, once I can get someplace with a range, I shall have to play around with all that again. What about oiling, is it possible I simply failed to oil sufficiently while putting it back together?
As far as the stabilizer goes, the manual that came with the gun says 750 psi supply pressure is ideal, otherwise if it is to high, rapidfire shots will be hot, due to the friction created by the quick recharge, which is problem I've experienced once before. Chronoing in at 260 fps, I was having accuracy problems at the time, but when I shot a quick burst, I put a very hot, three shot grouping the size of a gold dollar right over a guy's kidney from behind and just about got ejected from the field. I -have- noticed that the stabilizer's pressure tends to hunt somewhat during play though. I'll start at 750-800 and partway through the day, it will rise to 850 and then drop again. Ah well, if it won't work, I have been looking to add one to my old Spyder Basic, I hear they work miracles for CO2 guns. And besides, its at an age where it attracts almost more attention on the field than my automag ever will, hehe.

I think you've missed the point, here. The Palmer Stabilizer is a regulator. It's meant to be used on markers that require a regulator, such as the Pirahna or Spyder, or others of that bolt type. The Automag valve system has an integrated regulator. You want to get as much pressure as possible from your tank to your Mag valve. The more pressure you have going in to the valve, the better the Mag will perform for you.

[athomas]

.... What about oiling, is it possible I simply failed to oil sufficiently while putting it back together?
As far as the stabilizer goes, the manual that came with the gun says 750 psi supply pressure is ideal, otherwise if it is to high, rapidfire shots will be hot, due to the friction created by the quick recharge, which is problem I've experienced once before. Chronoing in at 260 fps, I was having accuracy problems at the time, but when I shot a quick burst, I put a very hot, three shot grouping the size of a gold dollar right over a guy's kidney from behind and just about got ejected from the field. ....

Oil helps overcome friction which in turn gives better consistency and helps compensate for parts that may stick due to friction.

The manual for the valve was written for level 7 bolts which operate at 350 - 400psi. The level 10 valves operate at a much higher chamber pressure. Still, 750psi is fine for the input to the valve. However, the stabilizer adds a restriction to the line. To maintain air flow, you need at least 950psi into the stabilizer, which I doubt you have.

Valves with level 10 bolts don't experience shoot up as much as level 7 valves due to the fact that they operate with a reduced pressure differential between bottle psi and chamber psi.

[dreadpirate]

Oil helps overcome friction which in turn gives better consistency and helps compensate for parts that may stick due to friction.

The manual for the valve was written for level 7 bolts which operate at 350 - 400psi. The level 10 valves operate at a much higher chamber pressure. Still, 750psi is fine for the input to the valve. However, the stabilizer adds a restriction to the line. To maintain air flow, you need at least 950psi into the stabilizer, which I doubt you have.

Valves with level 10 bolts don't experience shoot up as much as level 7 valves due to the fact that they operate with a reduced pressure differential between bottle psi and chamber psi.

Ah, ok, well then, I guess my next question, since I'll be replacing the airline, is there any significant flow difference between the standard steel braided hoses, and macroline?
So, back to the bolt stick, I swapped the carrier yet another size up, and it started leaking down the barrel while still exhibiting bolt stick, so finally threw out the oring and used a new one, with the second smallest carrier, which seems to be working fine.

[athomas]

The stainless braided line is about the same size as macroline. So, they both have very good flow rates. Stainless braided line will last longer than macroline. Macroline will need to be replaced periodically, especially if it gets scraped or nicked. Be careful when you buy your macroline. A lot of stuff on the market is not rated high enough. You see guys at the fields that have macrolines that fail all the time due to the use of improperly rated macro line.

[dreadpirate]

The stainless braided line is about the same size as macroline. So, they both have very good flow rates. Stainless braided line will last longer than macroline. Macroline will need to be replaced periodically, especially if it gets scraped or nicked. Be careful when you buy your macroline. A lot of stuff on the market is not rated high enough. You see guys at the fields that have macrolines that fail all the time due to the use of improperly rated macro line.

Ok, well, the replaced o-ring didn't help. Despite the fact that it is so loose I can just feel the carrier o-ring wiggle on the power tube, it still frequently siezes, even when dry firing, though now it occasionally slowly clicks back into place. Once though, even using my swab, I could not reseat the bolt. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, even with the o-ring carrier so large it was causing leakby, the bolt was still sticking. Adding oil delays the problem for about 200 shots or so, so I don't think it could be getting hung up on a burr in the mainbody, nor can I see anything in there it could hang up on. The manual says that if it sticks when pinching a ball, I should add a shim, but as I said, it is sticking when dryfiring as well, and is especially more likely to stick when I short-stroke the ULT. So, this time I'm adding shims, as a different portion of the manual says to do, and will see how that works out when I can get to a field again.

[athomas]

Ok, well, the replaced o-ring didn't help. Despite the fact that it is so loose I can just feel the carrier o-ring wiggle on the power tube, it still frequently siezes, even when dry firing, though now it occasionally slowly clicks back into place. Once though, even using my swab, I could not reseat the bolt. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, even with the o-ring carrier so large it was causing leakby, the bolt was still sticking. Adding oil delays the problem for about 200 shots or so, so I don't think it could be getting hung up on a burr in the mainbody, nor can I see anything in there it could hang up on. The manual says that if it sticks when pinching a ball, I should add a shim, but as I said, it is sticking when dryfiring as well, and is especially more likely to stick when I short-stroke the ULT. So, this time I'm adding shims, as a different portion of the manual says to do, and will see how that works out when I can get to a field again.

It sounds like something just isn't fitting right. Problems like this can be really hard to diagnose. Make sure the body is sitting down properly on the rail. Make sure the bolt spring is not worn out. Make sure the ULT top on-off oring is not leaking. Check the powertube
on your valve to make sure it didn't get bent. Check your bolt stem to make sure it didn't come loose or become bent. Check your regulator pin assembly to see if it isn't sticking. It can cause reset issues.

[Coralis]

You know ive heard some people having problems like this being caused by the ball detent being screwed in too tight .... try loosening/removing the ball detent and dry fire the gun.

[dreadpirate]

It sounds like something just isn't fitting right. Problems like this can be really hard to diagnose. Make sure the body is sitting down properly on the rail. Make sure the bolt spring is not worn out. Make sure the ULT top on-off oring is not leaking. Check the powertube
on your valve to make sure it didn't get bent. Check your bolt stem to make sure it didn't come loose or become bent. Check your regulator pin assembly to see if it isn't sticking. It can cause reset issues.

Ok, I have verified already that each bolt piece is straight as far as I can tell. The magnetic detent does not -seem- to have any parts protruding too far, but I suppose it would make sense to throw some balls in my reloader and then back out the detent until the point just before the reloader begins feeding balls past it. Not sure how to check the regulator pin or ULT, and by making sure the body is sitting properly on the rail, do you mean the valve body in its groove, or the mainbody? I don't hear any leaking, so I'm fairly sure the ULT o-ring is good, or would it be too quiet to hear?

After looking at a few other posts, I've been seeing descriptions of this gun as put together very tight, can't fit a sheet of paper between the body of the bolt, etc. I have about a 1/16" gap between the body and the bolt, could this be a cause?

[athomas]

Ok, I have verified already that each bolt piece is straight as far as I can tell. The magnetic detent does not -seem- to have any parts protruding too far, but I suppose it would make sense to throw some balls in my reloader and then back out the detent until the point just before the reloader begins feeding balls past it. Not sure how to check the regulator pin or ULT, and by making sure the body is sitting properly on the rail, do you mean the valve body in its groove, or the mainbody? I don't hear any leaking, so I'm fairly sure the ULT o-ring is good, or would it be too quiet to hear?

After looking at a few other posts, I've been seeing descriptions of this gun as put together very tight, can't fit a sheet of paper between the body of the bolt, etc. I have about a 1/16" gap between the body and the bolt, could this be a cause?

The regulator pin is the long pin that runs through the center of the inside of the valve. Some of these had a tendency to stick, which would result in what appears to be bolt stick but is actually a failure of the regulator to allow air to flow properly.

The ULT oring causes leaking from the regulator into the front chamber. This causes bolt stick issues. You can't hear it leak unless you hold the trigger back after a shot. Unfortunately, with a level 10 there is always a tiny bit of residual leaking due to low chamber pressure, so it is hard to distinguish a ULT leak.

The main body being properly seated is what I was referring to. If the pim (threaded nut on the bottom of the body) is too long or the hole it sits in is too shallow, it could cause issues even though it feels tight.

Further issues should be discussed in the tech formum under it own heading. It will get more responses from other users which may help your trouble shooting.

[themoose]

hey folks! i dont think this is a problem but just want to make sure its working properly.first off i have an e-tac that i have yet to ues in a game.it came factory tuned with this level x set-up....short spring,1.0 carrier and three shims.it had about 2200 shots recorded.i moved to the red spring so that its a little softer on paint and to fire at slightly higher velocity.when i first installed the red spring i would not fire.after reading this sticky i realized duh!..turn the velocity up.it now fires fine.what i want to know if this is the way its supposed to work.....i put a squegee about 1/4" from the bolt and it stops and vents.it goes back some but does'nt fully seat untill i pull the trigger again.i removed one shim to see if i would improve.by improve i mean,the bolt resets itself as appose to having to pull the trigger.it actually got worse.i had to manually push the bolt back.other than that it shot fine.needless to say i put the shim back.i decided to add another shim,making it four,but i ran out of air.so...is it normal to have to pull the trigger to seat the bolt after preventing a chop or should it fully seat on it's own making the next trigger pull fire normally? it's not a big deal just want to make sure it's ok.thanks!

[athomas]

themoose: What you have is a generic setup from the factory. Try one carrier size larger. Do it without any shims, just to make sure it doesn't leak. It should fire fine without any sticking. If it still sticks, go another carrier size larger. Once you get it working properly without the bolt sticking, you can put the shims back in.

The shims aren't for the bolt resetting after a shot, they are there to allow the bolt to reset in the event that it moves forward slightly and stops on an obstacle. They fine tune the point at which the bolt is allowed to vent the excess air from the chamber. Most of the time the shims are not required. Most obstacles in the breach allow the bolt to travel past the vent point anyway, even without the shims.

[themoose]

themoose: What you have is a generic setup from the factory. Try one carrier size larger. Do it without any shims, just to make sure it doesn't leak. It should fire fine without any sticking. If it still sticks, go another carrier size larger. Once you get it working properly without the bolt sticking, you can put the shims back in.

thanks for your help.im not having a problem with the bolt sticking all the time.this is my problem(at least i think it's a problem)..."i put a squegee about 1/4" from the bolt and it stops and vents.it goes back some but does'nt fully seat untill i pull the trigger again.i removed one shim to see if i would improve.by improve i mean,the bolt resets itself as appose to having to pull the trigger.it actually got worse.i had to manually push the bolt back.other than that it shot fine.needless to say i put the shim back".... this only happens when i put a squegee or my finger in front of the bolt.other than that it shoots flawlessly.is it normal to have to pull the trigger to seat the bolt after preventing a chop or should it fully seat on it's own making the next trigger pull fire normally?

[athomas]

i put a squegee about 1/4" from the bolt and it stops and vents.it goes back some but does'nt fully seat untill i pull the trigger again.

Bolt stick. Go to a larger carrier size.

[the mag guy]

I dont know if this has been covered in here, I read a lot of the pages, but stuff starts to overlap.

If you try to put your bolt on after adding shims or changing the carrier, and it wont go all the way back on, don't force it. I found that going to a larger carrier fixes this problem.

hope that helps

[Pronby]

Alright, so here it is: I bought a lvl 10 kit from a friend (it was still fresh-new) but it doesn't work. I have put in all the necissary parts but it happends **** when I pull the trigger. I feel a resistence in the trigger but it won't fire. If I turn up the velocity it gets harder but it refuses to fire. It fired once, with one of the longer springs and the velocity at max, but then the regulator ****ed away and the started to flow out of every hole on the marker.

So, what is the problem? how do I solve it? or should I just get something more simple that I can't break, like a Angel?

(By the way, I'm so sorry for my bad English.)