Autococker Curious (Caution: Long-winded OP)

[cockerpunk]

I respectfully disagree. 10 years with the same ULT and Level 10 setup - used the gun about a month ago, JUST started leaking. Otherwise, problem free.

lots of cockers can do the same thing. i tend to tune lvl 10s conservatively because they go out so easily otherwise.

i have not retimed a cocker of mine in years ...

[zondo]

What are you doing to tune your L10 all the time? Are you changing springs and adding/subtracting shims?

[Nobody]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but you are doing something very wrong.

My classic valve, which i installed the L10 kit in it within the 1st year of being released. So what, 2002? So nearly 13 years with the same spring, carrier and orings. When it leaks, throw in some oil. That is all. And, to throw salt in the wound, my efficiency went up AFTER installing the L10. Guess i messed up...

[going_home]

Where do you come up with these?

Oh, yeah... south Florida

Tampa is not south Florida.

I cleaned the saying up to "G" instead of the original "R" .

[zondo]

Tampa is not south Florida.

I cleaned the saying up to "G" instead of the original "R" .

Everything is south Florida in relation to Jax.

[Laku]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

I have to disagree as well, my experience is quite the opposite.

[djinnform]

Tune the ULT? Dratts. Those shims - I never ventured there.

[ghost flanker]

The concept of the Level 10 bolt admittingly delves into the realm of over-engineering a tad due to it requiring finer tolerances than o-ring manufacturers could ever meet in order for it to function properly. Tom Kaye did come up with a clever method to get around o-ring limitations using varying sized carriers, though. Also, it's been my experience that, once tuned, the Level 10 is quite problem free and typically remains so for years before the carrier's o-ring requires replacement. However, the issue arises when said o-ring does require replacement. If a power tube leak happens on the field, do you have all those other carriers there with you? I suppose if you were smart enough to bring your parts kit containing replacement o-rings then your set of carriers will be just another part of that kit anyway, so perhaps the point is moot. Still, repairing this leak is no longer "1. Disassemble, 2. Replace o-ring, 3. Reassemble, 4. Go" like a Level 7 would be. Now, with a Level 10, you need to conduct a more time consuming trial-and-error testing that may have you disassemble and reassemble the gun several times before you're good to go.

So does the Level 10 diminish a mag's reliability? If your definition of "reliability" is the frequency of malfunctions occurring during game play that affects or can potentially affect performance, then my answer is no. My Level 10 bolts do not leak or fail noticeably more often than their Level 7 counterparts. If anything, reliability is actually increased due to the reduction in ball chop malfunctions.

What is negatively impacted (somewhat) by a Level 10 bolt is "ease of maintenance", which is a completely different thing from reliability. A Tippmann 98 Custom is an extremely reliable gun due to how infrequently it breaks down, but it's ease of maintenance is horrible. Disassembly to repair anything internally when issues do occur is difficult and time consuming, at best. This is where Level 7 mags truly shine - no other paintball marker is quicker or easier to service (at least none that I'm aware of). Tuning a Level 10 may not be as frustrating as reassembling a 98 Custom but it requires a methodological approach to do it right.

[ghost flanker]

By the way, look what arrived in the mail today...
image.jpg
...posed with my favorite Minimag for added old school goodness.

Of course, the cocker needs to be timed badly. Fortunately I'm learning a lot from this thread, and thanks again for introducing me to techpb's Cockershow, Dayspring.

[cockerpunk]

I hate to be the one to tell you, but you are doing something very wrong.

My classic valve, which i installed the L10 kit in it within the 1st year of being released. So what, 2002? So nearly 13 years with the same spring, carrier and orings. When it leaks, throw in some oil. That is all. And, to throw salt in the wound, my efficiency went up AFTER installing the L10. Guess i messed up...

you can stave off the leak for while with oil, but you actually need a smaller carrier. over oiling causes problems too, you end up with lots of oil in the barrel, which effects accuracy.

and again, a cocker will hold time for years as well. only need to retime them when you adjust something you dont need to, or change something. you can also time a cocker mostly without air.

[BigEvil]

mag owners get such a blind spot for this kind of stuff.

mags lost there bullet-proofness with the lvl 10 and the ULT. both need to be near constant adjusting to work optimally.

let us not forget that unfamiliarity is not unreliability.

Pretty ignorant reply right there....

[Nobody]

you can stave off the leak for while with oil, but you actually need a smaller carrier. over oiling causes problems too, you end up with lots of oil in the barrel, which effects accuracy.

and again, a cocker will hold time for years as well. only need to retime them when you adjust something you dont need to, or change something. you can also time a cocker mostly without air.

Yes, i have oiled it every 4 years now. And i am not as stupid as you look. I shoot out the oil without a barrel.

But the important points of the timing of a cocker HAS to having air. Its like trying to bleed your breaks alone. Gordo, just stop while you are ahead with this. I beg of you.

[cockerpunk]

Yes, i have oiled it every 4 years now. And i am not as stupid as you look. I shoot out the oil without a barrel.

But the important points of the timing of a cocker HAS to having air. Its like trying to bleed your breaks alone. Gordo, just stop while you are ahead with this. I beg of you.

i said nothing about you or your looks.

either way, mags with the most advanced stuff, tuned well, do require maintenance. cockers do too, just different types at different times. cockers are not fundamentally more work, neither are mags. mags just arn't "bullet proof" and cockers arn't "finicky" an informed and knowledgeable user of either can make either very reliable, and use them well.

"let us not mistake unfamiliarity, with unreliability"

mags are more simple, but tougher to understand. they are also typically tougher to work on at the field. cockers are more intuitive if more complex. most of the adjustments can be made on the dirty pick-nick table at a field. both can be reliable, both are. i merely protested that mags are "bullet proof" and cockers are not. i have extensive experience with both guns, i have owned and shot many examples of both. i use both regularly. mags do require work. whenever you are relying on such tight frictional tolerances as a lvl 10 or ULT, it requires tuning. that makes it not bullet proof.

[Nobody]

i said nothing about you or your looks.

either way, mags with the most advanced stuff, tuned well, do require maintenance. cockers do too, just different types at different times. cockers are not fundamentally more work, neither are mags. mags just arn't "bullet proof" and cockers arn't "finicky" an informed and knowledgeable user of either can make either very reliable, and use them well.

"let us not mistake unfamiliarity, with unreliability"

mags are more simple, but tougher to understand. they are also typically tougher to work on at the field. cockers are more intuitive if more complex. most of the adjustments can be made on the dirty pick-nick table at a field. both can be reliable, both are. i merely protested that mags are "bullet proof" and cockers are not. i have extensive experience with both guns, i have owned and shot many examples of both. i use both regularly. mags do require work. whenever you are relying on such tight frictional tolerances as a lvl 10 or ULT, it requires tuning. that makes it not bullet proof.

Your statements are asinine and double talk.

By simple math, you have 2 orings in a mag that could go wrong, the powertip and the on/off. In a cocker you have the 4way, the ram, the valve, the LPR, the HPR, the cupseal. All have potential orings that could fail. Also by definition, the more parts you have, the more that could go wrong.

I do not see how you can even say that mags are not easy to work on. 1 screw and the valve comes out. In a cocker, you have to drop the frame, move the sear lug, unscrew the beavertail, remove the IVG, use a COCKER VALVE TOOL, just to get at the valve. If it were the cup seal, you have to remove the bolt, remove the cocking rod, unscrew the front block, slide the timing rod out from the trigger, just to access it. In the time it took me to write this, anyone could have replaced the powertube oring and had a working gun again. Seriously, as complex as the theory is, mags are infinietly easier to work on than a cocker. You do not need to understand theory of what makes them work, just where you need to pay attention to. I have put together a cocker on the field and it worked, yet i can't say that it was timed perfectly. Mags you don't have to time.

Seriously, you are assbackwards in your ideas. 6 parts make up a mag: body, rail, sear, valve, trigger and ASA. In a cocker, there are 6 pieces in the trigger frame alone: sear, trigger plate, frame, sear spring and trigger spring.

You don't add in parts to make something more complex. If you were any sort of engineer, you know that a Rube Goldberg machine, which cockers are, don't get easier with the more parts added. So please, think about what you are saying, then make the statement. Apologies will be accepted.

[BigEvil]

i said nothing about you or your looks.

whenever you are relying on such tight frictional tolerances as a lvl 10 or ULT, it requires tuning. that makes it not bullet proof.

You are kidding there right?