Autococker Curious (Caution: Long-winded OP)

[cockerpunk]

Your statements are asinine and double talk.

By simple math, you have 2 orings in a mag that could go wrong, the powertip and the on/off. In a cocker you have the 4way, the ram, the valve, the LPR, the HPR, the cupseal. All have potential orings that could fail. Also by definition, the more parts you have, the more that could go wrong.

I do not see how you can even say that mags are not easy to work on. 1 screw and the valve comes out. In a cocker, you have to drop the frame, move the sear lug, unscrew the beavertail, remove the IVG, use a COCKER VALVE TOOL, just to get at the valve. If it were the cup seal, you have to remove the bolt, remove the cocking rod, unscrew the front block, slide the timing rod out from the trigger, just to access it. In the time it took me to write this, anyone could have replaced the powertube oring and had a working gun again. Seriously, as complex as the theory is, mags are infinietly easier to work on than a cocker. You do not need to understand theory of what makes them work, just where you need to pay attention to. I have put together a cocker on the field and it worked, yet i can't say that it was timed perfectly. Mags you don't have to time.

Seriously, you are assbackwards in your ideas. 6 parts make up a mag: body, rail, sear, valve, trigger and ASA. In a cocker, there are 6 pieces in the trigger frame alone: sear, trigger plate, frame, sear spring and trigger spring.

You don't add in parts to make something more complex. If you were any sort of engineer, you know that a Rube Goldberg machine, which cockers are, don't get easier with the more parts added. So please, think about what you are saying, then make the statement. Apologies will be accepted.

there are a lot more than 2 orings that can go wrong in a mag. sorry, its not that simple. i assume you have owned enough mags to have all manner of issues with them, from body/valve concentricity, leaking RT gas through rings, trigger pins coming out of adjustment, and the classic bolt kit and on/off issues. you can even have reg seal/seat/pin issues.

and automag is a machine, it can fail in any number of ways. not just "two orings" otherwise every thread in the tech section would be "power tube oring" or "on/off oring" ... its a machine. its more complicated than that. sorry.

parts counts are irrelevent, example;

retiming a cocker ... i dont need to take anything apart. literally, every adjustment i need can be accessed while fully assembled. tuning a level 10, or ULT, you will need a nice clean place to take the gun fully apart to do either. almost everything that can go wrong with a mag requires a full break down, almost nothing that goes wrong with a cocker requires full break down. this is because most functional bits on a cocker are on the outside.

parts count is irrelevant.

EDIT: with my reputation as a techy and old school guy, i get handed guns all the time asked to fix them. mags, cockers, angels, matrixes, you name it. i've seen some really crazy **** go wrong with a lot of them. the most common mag one is "it leaks" and i always ask "what happens when you pull the trigger and hold it down" and they say "i don't know" but i have seen some other really strange stuff with mags too, even a cursory browse of the tech section on this very forum talks about quite a few different issues.

You are kidding there right?

so, you mean the kit doesn't come with 3 orings and a half a dozen to a dozen carriers to dial in the friction fit exactly right?





no value judgement on either gun, i own and love both types, as not only are the guns themselves very different to shoot, but also there philosophy and fundamental are so vastly different. i am glad to own both. im glad to live in a world where we have both. but when you introduce some of the later upgrades to mags, like the lvl 10 and the ULT, you are leaving the bullet proof concept behind. an all steel classic lvl 7 mag with a poly frame? pretty bullet proof. a tuned on the edge lvl 10 with a mega-light ULT in an X valve ... thats no longer a bullet proof gun.

recently was talking to bryce about this very thing, he was commenting that my azodin wont be as reliable as my mag is. "because sears break and stuff like that" true, blowbacks break sears, but it takes about 10 minutes to change one out, how much worse is that then retuning a lvl 10? you gotta do both of them every couple of years ... is one "bullet proof" and the other not?

they are all machines, and machines can fail. and the more accurate and narrow your operating regime is, the tougher it is keep the machine in that range. the friction effects in a lvl 10, and the length effects of the ULT shim stack are perfect examples. we live in a world of imperfect orings, and automags are particularly sensitive to them, thats why you have to set up these systems.

[ghost flanker]

Dammit, going_home! I blame you for this! Look at what you started with your first post. Total butterfly effect.

Now, I'm terribly sorry to interupt the love note exchange between you guys - it's apparent you're all quite fond of each other - but my quest for knowledge continues. Cockerpunk, you had mentioned something about timing a depressurized autococker. I'd like to hear more about that.

[Dayspring]

Dammit, going_home! I blame you for this! Look at what you started with your first post. Total butterfly effect.

Now, I'm terribly sorry to interupt the love note exchange between you guys - it's apparent you're all quite fond of each other - but my quest for knowledge continues. Cockerpunk, you had mentioned something about timing a depressurized autococker. I'd like to hear more about that.

Yeah - let's get back to the ACTUAL conversation. No more bickering.

[Nobody]

there are a lot more than 2 orings that can go wrong in a mag. sorry, its not that simple. i assume you have owned enough mags to have all manner of issues with them, from body/valve concentricity, leaking RT gas through rings, trigger pins coming out of adjustment, and the classic bolt kit and on/off issues. you can even have reg seal/seat/pin issues.

Actually it is that simple, in 90% of the cases. If it is leaking out the barrel/powertube, its the powertube oring. If it is leaking out of the on/off, then its one of the 2 orings. Maybe its cause i hang out, play with Tuna and BigEvil, who are the best techs for the platform, i get a little knowledge from them in addition to owning my own mag since 1998. The trigger rod can be checked with a credit card, if it comes undone. The red loctite isn't something that is normally in my gearbag, yet it can be easily had. And here is a "pro tip", don't mess with it and no need to adjust anything.

and automag is a machine, it can fail in any number of ways. not just "two orings" otherwise every thread in the tech section would be "power tube oring" or "on/off oring" ... its a machine. its more complicated than that. sorry.

If you look at something that could fail, then it will. If you are pulling it constantly, then it will fail. Yet those posts, how many people do state that if the leak is down the barrel its that oring and in the on/off its those. Try actually reading through the posts to see what was said, and what fixed it. Assumption does not become your arguments

parts counts are irrelevent, example;

retiming a cocker ... i dont need to take anything apart. literally, every adjustment i need can be accessed while fully assembled. tuning a level 10, or ULT, you will need a nice clean place to take the gun fully apart to do either. almost everything that can go wrong with a mag requires a full break down, almost nothing that goes wrong with a cocker requires full break down. this is because most functional bits on a cocker are on the outside.

If by break down, you unscrew ONE BOLT, then yes you do have to break down the gun. The simplicity of the design, being in a tight little package does lend itself to that though the mechanism is complex in it's workings. Yet the user doesn't need to know bow or why it works, just to air here, point & shoot.

Blow a cup seal, you are breaking down the gun. Don't tighten the valve nut, you are breaking down the gun. Changing the LPR, you are breaking down the front block. You can not deny the modularity of the design, where 2 screws holds the gun together. You are confusing the pneumatics with the guts, for one screw, you have the bolt, reg, on/off, powertube.

parts count is irrelevant.

EDIT: with my reputation as a techy and old school guy, i get handed guns all the time asked to fix them. mags, cockers, angels, matrixes, you name it. i've seen some really crazy **** go wrong with a lot of them. the most common mag one is "it leaks" and i always ask "what happens when you pull the trigger and hold it down" and they say "i don't know" but i have seen some other really strange stuff with mags too, even a cursory browse of the tech section on this very forum talks about quite a few different issues.

And????? Anyone that is known to shoot older guns or specific guns, has a little book on potential problems for those guns. Don't think yourself the only one who has fixed a gun.

so, you mean the kit doesn't come with 3 orings and a half a dozen to a dozen carriers to dial in the friction fit exactly right?

As exact as the mag is with tolerances, each gun would need a small cross section of parts. Of which after you find the combo that works for you, you don't need to change. Case in point, my classic never has chewed through orings, i think i changed a spring in it, and if it leaks a little, more through inactivity, it is because the orings are dry, not because they are shredded.

no value judgement on either gun, i own and love both types, as not only are the guns themselves very different to shoot, but also there philosophy and fundamental are so vastly different. i am glad to own both. im glad to live in a world where we have both. but when you introduce some of the later upgrades to mags, like the lvl 10 and the ULT, you are leaving the bullet proof concept behind. an all steel classic lvl 7 mag with a poly frame? pretty bullet proof. a tuned on the edge lvl 10 with a mega-light ULT in an X valve ... thats no longer a bullet proof gun.

But they are bullet proof guns, anvils for their simplicity. A concept that you seen not to grasp. Might be that only i am engaging you on this fact, yet they are. Now i have no persoa.l experie.e with

recently was talking to bryce about this very thing, he was commenting that my azodin wont be as reliable as my mag is. "because sears break and stuff like that" true, blowbacks break sears, but it takes about 10 minutes to change one out, how much worse is that then retuning a lvl 10? you gotta do both of them every couple of years ... is one "bullet proof" and the other not?

they are all machines, and machines can fail. and the more accurate and narrow your operating regime is, the tougher it is keep the machine in that range. the friction effects in a lvl 10, and the length effects of the ULT shim stack are perfect examples. we live in a world of imperfect orings, and automags are particularly sensitive to them, thats why you have to set up these systems.

Yet, by simple math, the more parts you have, the more you deviate from the original setup(cockers is the sniper & mags the lvl7), the farther away you get from reliability as you put it.

[Nobody]

Yeah - let's get back to the ACTUAL conversation. No more bickering.

Educating one that has little to no clue is not bickering. It is education.

[going_home]

[cockerpunk]

Dammit, going_home! I blame you for this! Look at what you started with your first post. Total butterfly effect.

Now, I'm terribly sorry to interupt the love note exchange between you guys - it's apparent you're all quite fond of each other - but my quest for knowledge continues. Cockerpunk, you had mentioned something about timing a depressurized autococker. I'd like to hear more about that.

once the three way is setup on a cocker, and the trigger adjusted to match, you can typically time the lug without air. esp if you are good and know where you set your three way trip point. if you are really short on air, you can pull the hammer out and just pump the 3 way with the trigger and get that all set up with a fraction of the air full shots require.

most of the time, once you set up a set of pneumatics, you don't have to adjust anything up there. but to take the valve out, you need to take the hammer out, and that means adjusting the lug. now you can, if you have a measuring tool handy, measure the lug, and put it back in the same place if you want to, but rarely at a field do you have a caliper or depth mic, so its nice to be able to quickly get the lug close. and you can do that by feel without air, pumping the gun like a pump gun.

i've used this trick many times getting cockers close. or even fully setting them up. like chronoing a gun by sound, or pressure against your hand, its one of those tricks that uses a lot of experience.

Actually it is that simple, in 90% of the cases. If it is leaking out the barrel/powertube, its the powertube oring. If it is leaking out of the on/off, then its one of the 2 orings. Maybe its cause i hang out, play with Tuna and BigEvil, who are the best techs for the platform, i get a little knowledge from them in addition to owning my own mag since 1998. The trigger rod can be checked with a credit card, if it comes undone. The red loctite isn't something that is normally in my gearbag, yet it can be easily had. And here is a "pro tip", don't mess with it and no need to adjust anything.

and i get handed guns all the time by players who have zero experience with them and have messed them up nice and royally. they know me as a old school techy kinda guy, and get handed there projects all the time.

suffice to say, a lot can wrong with a mag.

If you look at something that could fail, then it will. If you are pulling it constantly, then it will fail. Yet those posts, how many people do state that if the leak is down the barrel its that oring and in the on/off its those. Try actually reading through the posts to see what was said, and what fixed it. Assumption does not become your arguments

this doesn't make sense.

If by break down, you unscrew ONE BOLT, then yes you do have to break down the gun. The simplicity of the design, being in a tight little package does lend itself to that though the mechanism is complex in it's workings. Yet the user doesn't need to know bow or why it works, just to air here, point & shoot.

Blow a cup seal, you are breaking down the gun. Don't tighten the valve nut, you are breaking down the gun. Changing the LPR, you are breaking down the front block. You can not deny the modularity of the design, where 2 screws holds the gun together. You are confusing the pneumatics with the guts, for one screw, you have the bolt, reg, on/off, powertube.

i was not arguing one is better than the other, or that there are no instances where a cocker needs to be fully broken down.

merely pointing out that sans valve trouble (which is pretty rare in a basic poppit valve), most of what needs to be worked on, is on the outside, and doesn't need to be taken apart very much because of it.

And????? Anyone that is known to shoot older guns or specific guns, has a little book on potential problems for those guns. Don't think yourself the only one who has fixed a gun.

this directly contradicts your above assertion that nothing else besides power-tube oring and on/off oring can possibly go wrong because you play with players at tunaball.

As exact as the mag is with tolerances, each gun would need a small cross section of parts. Of which after you find the combo that works for you, you don't need to change. Case in point, my classic never has chewed through orings, i think i changed a spring in it, and if it leaks a little, more through inactivity, it is because the orings are dry, not because they are shredded.

just like a cocker!

But they are bullet proof guns, anvils for their simplicity. A concept that you seen not to grasp. Might be that only i am engaging you on this fact, yet they are. Now i have no persoa.l experie.e with

you broke up a bit at the end there. i fully understand the design and function of an automag.

Yet, by simple math, the more parts you have, the more you deviate from the original setup(cockers is the sniper & mags the lvl7), the farther away you get from reliability as you put it

yup, NOPE.jpg

.

in the interests of not being banned because evidentially i can be banned for other people's posts on these boards, i've said my piece, and this response is as desperate and silly as i've seen from you in a while, so thats that.

have fun, nobody, can't wait until you destroy another thread!

[blackdeath1k]

Love that 99. I'm still lusting at my brother n laws 96. But alas. I'm lazy so I'll stick with old faithful. I will say however though that in 2008 I got drug out to play with a friend. First time I had played since 03. I had my classic rt that hadn't been used since 03. And the aforementioned 96 cocker that hadn't been used since probably 99. Ironically my rt wouldn't cycle. Stuck air on the cocker and it cycled fine. So I played that day with the cocker. Granted all my mag needed was a new bumper as the OEM one had melted and turned to glue in storage. In the end it was the cocker that actually needed nothing to function that day. What I've seen over the years both markers can be very rugged. And as much as I love my mags. Nothing beats the look and sound of a well tuned old cocker.

[ghost flanker]

Thanks, blackdeath1K. At first, I wished that it still had the stock frame, but the benchmark is really quite comfy and matches aesthetically extremely well. Right now it cocks and fires simultaneously, but once I adjust the timing it's gonna be painting up some modern electro shooters just like my mags do.

[Dayspring]

I have an Autococker body (99 STO) that I'm getting hydro dipped. It's seen better days, so why not.



Whoever had it before me used grease where they shouldn't have (or it was paint that has since solidified). The chrome on the grip is flaked off too:

[Nobody]

Thanks, blackdeath1K. At first, I wished that it still had the stock frame, but the benchmark is really quite comfy and matches aesthetically extremely well. Right now it cocks and fires simultaneously, but once I adjust the timing it's gonna be painting up some modern electro shooters just like my mags do.

Adjust in/ shorten the timing rod or adjust the hammer lug out. You do want it close but still can drop the hammer before cocking, but also make sure that you are pulling the trigger fully. It is a 2 stage trigger and you need to complete the fire stage before the cocking stage.

[ghost flanker]

So I'm experiencing a problem with timing my autococker while following along Ravi Chopra's article; http://mcarterbrown.com/ravi/Article...t/ACTroub.html.

The issue is that my gun often fails to cock fully when firing. It cocks fine when I pull the back block manually. But when the trigger is pulled, the gun will often do this;

1.) Fires about 33%-50% into the trigger pull while simultaneously thrusting the back block back but not with enough pressure to fully cock the cocking rod
2.) Immediately thereafter, a heavy leak will vent out the front of the 3-way
3.) The 3-way leak continues as I pull the trigger all the way back
4.) When the trigger is released, the leak out the front of the 3-way stops, a smaller leak out the back of the 3-way often starts, and the back block and (uncocked) cocking rod both come forward.

Screwing out the back block or screwing in the nut on the cocking rod to get the gun to cock properly does nothing. I think the heavy leak out the front of the 3-way may be causing the ram to not generate enough pressure to fully cock the gun. It's also draining several of my once full air tanks trying to troubleshoot this problem. I tried disassembling the gun in an attempt to access the 3-way's o-rings to inspect for damage/wear, but the timing rod does not slide out of the 3-way like Mike's gun does in his video. Am I doing something wrong here? I do see a small snap ring on the front of the 3-way. Do I need to buy tiny snap ring pliers just to access these o-rings?! Or have I somehow screwed up the timing on the timing rod?

Also, my apparently aftermarket trigger plate has a hole for the timing rod rather than a slot. According to the addendum at the bottom of "Step 4: Set the Timing Rod Length", my post 2K style tigger plate requires that the cocking point be set very close to, if not directly coinciding with the firing point" - this is how the gun was pretty much set up when I got it. Any attempt to adjust the cocking point back results in a leak out the back of the 3-way. Does this gun have the wrong trigger plate on it? Or is a post 2K frame and trigger ok?

[cfos00]

The hole versus slot isn't a big deal. It just took the slop out of the plate, and frankly the best trigger jobs back then involved pounding the rod flat to eliminate the slack---the round hole does the same thing.

It sounds like your 3-way o-ring may have a knick in it or rotted out. I honestly hate those threeways, as they are not at all easy to work with. You may want to throw on a more user-friendly three-way. I'd suggest just getting a STO threeway, which were stock on the 2k+ cockers. They're cheap (between $10/$20), and are a lot more user friendly. I might also suggest a twister end cap for your LPR from belsales. Again, about 20 bucks and will make your LPR adjustable externally. If not, you can pop off your endcap and adjust from there, but the twister cap makes things a bit user-friendly. I wouldn't suggest more until you're completely comfortable with what you have. 90% of cocker problems boil down to user error when 'fixing' something that doesn't need fixing (we've all been there).

Keep following the guide Ravi made. It was good then, and is good now. It's exactly how I learned to time a cocker, and I can do it in my sleep now. It's legitimately good advice. Hop on over to CC, and we'll help you out over there.

[ghost flanker]

I really want to keep the pneumatics stock if I can. This gun is sort of a museum piece to me.

However, I did finally get the timing down pat after walking away to take a break from the frustration - timing rod was apparently not extended far enough out. Doing this stopped the smaller leak coming out the back of the three-way. Now the thing slurps tissue paper down the feedneck like nobody's business. It's still got that heavy leak that blows out the front of the 3-way when the trigger is pulled post-fire stage, though. Also only cocks about 40% of the time because of said leak. Gotta take that 3-way apart and see what the deal is. Probably is in dire need of a good cleaning and some Dow 55 at the very least. Those o-rings are likely toast anyway, though.

[Nobody]

Good, i was thinking it was a timing issue but didn't reply.

Remember, the 4 way is called a 4 way as it has 2 inlets and 2 outlets. The front is an exhaust port, you will always have some air escaping from there.

And make sure you are pulling the trigger fully. Coming from mags, it does take a deliberate pull and not like pulling a mag trigger. It is very much the opposite.