Aluminum Classic Valve

[athomas]

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

It shouldn't affect the pneumag or any other pneumatic trigger. If that were the case, then the only guns allowed would be blowback sear trippers. A design shouldn't be banned just because it is good. It should only be banned if it allows a rate of fire above what the user can legitimately do on their own.

Yes, but the trigger pull is really hard. Since you have direct line pressure acting on the pin in an Xvalve, the pull weight is probably 2/3 harder than a classic mag.

The trigger pull force would be the same as a classic because the dump chamber requires the same pressure as a classic does to fire a ball, which is about double that of a RT/X valve. The direct line pressure is only on the return force. So the return force for the classic pin in an X-valve would be the same as the return force for the RT pin. The reactivity would be greatly reduced because the differential is about 2 to 1 vs 4 to 1 using a RT pin.

[blackdeath1k]

You can have reactivity without "bounce". If that's implied, then they really need to change the name of it. I think half the problem technically is people are just throwing words around without pinning down what they really mean.

And by the way, force alone doesn't produce actual work.

In some cases you can relate force to work ("this return force ratio *might* produce bounce in some guns"), but good luck crafting a rule where it is both effective *and* doesn't unnecessarily rule out certain configurations. Some guns will RT at 850PSI or less, some will never RT at all.



I don't see a feedback path so it wouldn't be considered "reactive". It's just "a really light trigger". Whether or not it gets banned is, again, a matter up to the fickle, inconsistent minded rulemakers. It's a good litmus test to see what the spirit of the rulemakers really is.




OK, so this I think is the unspoken heart of the matter, and where we separate the men from the bearded lady-men.

The mech question isn't about ROF, because you could just limit ROF and call it a day.

It's not about paint limit because you could just limit paint and call it a day.

It's about game design.

You want to design games where choices have meaning.

In current open play, if you want to go hard, it's a pretty easy choice. Pick up an electro gun with an electro hopper, go hose people. The choice is so easy that it's meaningless.

But what if we were go around and kick everybody's crutches out from under them? "No batteries. Now what are you going to do?"

Now people have to start making equipment choices which actually mean something.

It is exactly the same thing as when a video game maker goes in and nerfs a certain aspect of the game when it becomes boringly overpowered. They nerf that, then everyone scrambles to find the next OP thing, and sometimes they wind up finding something that was even more powerful than the original thing that was nerfed.

That's when things get entertaining.

I agree 100%. Clash of clans is a perfect example of the game nerfing.

And this is also why I said all they really need to do is say E marker and non force fed hopper or mech marker and force fed hopper allowed.

In the end there are full auto mech guns. Granted today they are really old guns. But they exist. And then there is the mag.

In reality the rt bounce concern went out the window once every 10 year old with a 200 dollar credit from daddy could score them an E marker capable of sub 20bps.

[GoatBoy]

You can have reactivity without "bounce". If that's implied, then they really need to change the name of it. I think half the problem technically is people are just throwing words around without pinning down what they really mean.

And by the way, force alone doesn't produce actual work.

In some cases you can relate force to work ("this return force ratio *might* produce bounce in some guns"), but good luck crafting a rule where it is both effective *and* doesn't unnecessarily rule out certain configurations. Some guns will RT at 850PSI or less, some will never RT at all.

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

I don't see a feedback path so it wouldn't be considered "reactive". It's just "a really light trigger". Whether or not it gets banned is, again, a matter up to the fickle, inconsistent minded rulemakers. It's a good litmus test to see what the spirit of the rulemakers really is.

This is a very interesting thread...

I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

OK, so this I think is the unspoken heart of the matter, and where we separate the men from the bearded lady-men.

The mech question isn't about ROF, because you could just limit ROF and call it a day.

It's not about paint limit because you could just limit paint and call it a day.

It's about game design.

You want to design games where choices have meaning.

In current open play, if you want to go hard, it's a pretty easy choice. Pick up an electro gun with an electro hopper, go hose people. The choice is so easy that it's meaningless.

But what if we were go around and kick everybody's crutches out from under them? "No batteries. Now what are you going to do?"

Now people have to start making equipment choices which actually mean something.

It is exactly the same thing as when a video game maker goes in and nerfs a certain aspect of the game when it becomes boringly overpowered. They nerf that, then everyone scrambles to find the next OP thing, and sometimes they wind up finding something that was even more powerful than the original thing that was nerfed.

That's when things get entertaining.

[zondo]

This is a very interesting thread...

I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

But it still takes skill to walk a pneumag for anything longer than 3-4 shots... and lots of tuning and practice. It's still pure semi and no guarantee on what the actual rate of fire would be like you would get with an e-gun. You do not have a board to make up for clumsy fingers and short stroking. Again, it is a physical skill.

I say let it fly, if you can do it! Even let warpfeeds or other force fed hoppers in. the pool of people that can pull >13BPS on a pure mech trigger for longer than 4 rounds is not large.

[luke]

I would vote for 1 full hopper, two pods, no sharing paint.

[vintage]

easiest fix is limited paint say 500 to 600 rounds per player passed out by officials 5 minutes prior to game start, all unused paint thrown in trash when leaving field under the watchful eye of an official.

i'm sure the league doesn't want to work this hard so they will just ban markers they don't like.

[Mondoatx]

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

This is a very interesting thread...

I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

[BigEvil]

Can you put a classic on/off inside an x-valve to eliminate reactivity?

Yes, but the trigger pull is really hard. Since you have direct line pressure acting on the pin in an Xvalve, the pull weight is probably 2/3 harder than a classic mag.

[zondo]

So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

[athomas]

Reactivity on any gun results when the return force of the trigger is greater than the force required to pull activate the shot. It doesn't matter what gun it is on. If you provide feedback and there is enough force differentical between the pull and reset, you will get trigger bounce.

There should be a standard set such that the return force cannot be more than some percentage above the the trigger activation force. That would fix all arguements and make any mechanical gun legal as long as it meets the standard.

[dboggs79]

Just make ruling on tank output pressure, done.

[GoatBoy]

What are the weights of the various stock AGD markers produced over the years? I thought there were numerous pretty thorough threads on this, but searching isn't producing very good results.

I don't have a full list, although component part weights are easier to find.

I think the Classic came in close to 2lbs even.

I believe the X-Mag came in at 2.7lbs. The X-Mag has all kinds of fanciness in it, but it's "Abandon all hope" as soon as you put the aluminum grip frame with the solenoid + the battery on there.

I'm just gonna... leave this here.



I'd like an aluminum Classic as the X-Valve is still lighter than my Vigilante-valve setup by almost an ounce, but let's face it -- it's not happening.

[Spider-TW]

Another interesting point that I was reminded of, NOT ONE SINGLE AGD GUN LEAVES THE FACTORY WITH TRIGGER BOUNCE.

Could you clarify the difference between RT and trigger bounce? Seems like any trigger that kicks back harder than you had to pull can be held to bounce.

[going_home]

Simon seems to be attempting to include Automags ?

[BigEvil]

I would love to see an aluminum classic valve. I have spoken to Tim about it, I don't think it's on the radar. XMT tried to drum up interest a while back but there didn't seem to be much.

Another interesting point that I was reminded of, NOT ONE SINGLE AGD GUN LEAVES THE FACTORY WITH TRIGGER BOUNCE. The NXL problem is two fold;

1- how to adequately make sure that Mag dont get more than one shot per pull
and
2 - (this is my own $.02) AGD does not have money in the league, is not throwing money around, or has any sponsored teams.

Other than a minority of people (you can guess who) that want to see mags in the mech division of the NXL, the rest could care less. I'm also sure that none of them want to come up against them.