Chrono rules debate with Bill Mills...

[Doc Nickel]

According to all those rules. And if it's not optimal or not consistent then that's my problem on the field. I would not prefer it but I would take that over having to be out or not use my marker. But no Ref can tell me I failed to meet the rules. NO REF can. It's not in there and its not required that I have a trigger rod.

That would perhaps be the case if the RT's velocity rise during rapid fire were not a known, published factor.

Problems with regulators, erratic LPR pressures, malfunctioning electronics and so on can also produce similar results, but these are not inherent to the marker itself- thay are just as described, problems. (IE, not all inline regs will "creep", and not all markers with a reg that creeps will see raised velocities. LPR problems have a greater effect on velocity on an Angel than a Timmy. Ad nauseum.)

The RT's velocity climb is a known, repeatable aspect inherent to the valve itself and how it operates. It can be reasonably assumed that very close to every RT-based 'Mag valve will act similarly.

Therefore if one cannot chrono that valve in a manner that will effectively simulate the known velocity increase, then the ref/chrono-cop/tourney-organizer can indeed disallow that marker.

[manike]

Originally posted by lamby
This is only true if you do not have a levelX if you do the pressures need to be too high to eliminate this bouce effect

Just to add to Black's point, I run my gun with level 10 at around 650psi. It runs right down to around 550psi before I can't shoot anymore, and I don't have bounce in manual mode.

[lamby]

Black, I am not going to IAO but I really appreciate the offer. I never tried using grease on my bolt, but I do use ALOT of oil. I also think that my LX is correct, and it is very loose. You guys are talking about your input pressures, I also run mine around the 650 range (even without he trigger rod in)but I can make it bounce there in manual mode even with the trigger rod screwed in to the point that it will not fire the marker at all, but still applies presssure to the on/off for proper chrono. I feel that if I can bounce it, a ref can bounce it so it is not legal.

Question for the throbbing brain that is AO. Is there a chance that the length of the on/off pin could be part of the problem? Maybe my on/off is worn out (It acted like this when it was new also though)

Manike, as my last thread stated, I tried to run at 550 but the valve could not charge fast enough to fire. I could take SLOW shots with no bounce, but if I hammered on it it would just miss fire.

[manike]

Originally posted by lamby
Manike, as my last thread stated, I tried to run at 550 but the valve could not charge fast enough to fire. I could take SLOW shots with no bounce, but if I hammered on it it would just miss fire.

Same as mine, and pretty much what I meant. I can rail on it at 650psi input (which is how I run the gun normally), and it will still get shots down to 550psi but it won't recharge well enough for quick firing.

If you have too short a pin it may be why your gun is bouncing quite so easy even at lower input PSI...

[cphilip]

Well for one thing you can crono an Emag in E mode so that it does not have a spike up over 300. I have done if several times. What you do is fire three quick shots (which is allowed) then shoot over the crono and set it there. What results from that is a blooper first shot sometimes when it sets and cools and then the rest are decent. I did this seveal times and what I did was set it to shoot 280 after three very quick warming shots fired in quick succession. And you will NOT get one over 300. So there is a procedure that will work.

And of course its not as good as the RT procedure. I am not recomending you use it unless its the only way. I am saying it results in a safe gun and if done that way and left that way it is then crono'd "as used on the field". And there is no safety issue there then Muzik and Doc. None what so ever. Assuming you do it correctly. It's not the best way. But if you have a bounce issue you cannot adjust out it will get you on the field then this can be done. And the only way a Ref SHOULD allow this is if you remove the rod. And it is perfectly within the rules. However inconsistent and poorly it may perform. As long as it does not result in a hot shot its legal.

Again lets remember I am not "recomending" this. It's not the best choice. But to imply its against the rules I feel is in error. An Emag can be made to fall within the rules this way and is allowed according to the rules. And it has been allowed several times. And no hot gun penalties have ever been asessed to one doing it. I've done it just for grins myself. Not taken the rod out but crono'd this way just to see what it would do. And I am certian it can be set to not shoot hot. However pitiful it may be on a cold shot.

But then once you got by that time in an emergency...I suggest you fix your marker. And do it the "beter" way. Your not doing yourself any good nor the emag working as effectly as it should this way.

[shartley]

possible.

[BlackVCG]

Lamby-

Measure your on/off pin length. It should be .712" if you have double o-rings in the top and a completely brass on/off assembly.

If you have a single o-ring top, you should have an aluminum top piece, brass bottom piece and a .725" pin.

[Muzikman]

Phil: And is that a "published" method of chronoing an Emag? Again, that is not what it said on the piece of paper that came with my Emag. At the same time, I'll agree that if you would chrono the gun in at 280 then you will probably never shoot over 300. But the correct way to chrono is a gray line that if a ref calls you on it, it can and should be inforced. I think a locable selector switch would be the best way to go. Chrono in Manual, lock it in E. For the tournament guys, how many have actually even flipped the gun to manual mode during a game.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by BradAGD


Actually, doesn't the DOT govern that area? The tanks are rated to a service pressure of 4500psi as stated by a government agency. To me, that's a rule. May not be written into tournament rules but a rule none the less.

just my $.02.

Brad, you are right, but it was getting late and I was trying to make a point

[pito189]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
lamby-

I run my E-Mag at 650psi input and have no problems with it keeping up on the field.

Originally posted by manike
I run my X-mag at about 650 psi input and if you hold the trigger down before firing it actually shows a slightly lower fps than just pulling it in electro. In general though with my gun it doesn't seem to make much difference to FPS however you chrono it.

Along with Black and Manike, I run my E-Mag and X-Mag at 650psi, and never have had a problem with shootdown. I can't even come close to making my trigger bounce, even in Hybrid mode.

Oil the heck out of your gun lamby, and check your tank to make sure it is functioning properly, maybe it needs a servicing. Heck even check the guage it could be faulty.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Muzikman
Phil: And is that a "published" method of chronoing an Emag? Again, that is not what it said on the piece of paper that came with my Emag. At the same time, I'll agree that if you would chrono the gun in at 280 then you will probably never shoot over 300. But the correct way to chrono is a gray line that if a ref calls you on it, it can and should be inforced. I think a locable selector switch would be the best way to go. Chrono in Manual, lock it in E. For the tournament guys, how many have actually even flipped the gun to manual mode during a game.

It is now!

But its not required that it be a "published method". Just that it meets the rules criteria when crono'd as it will be used in game. No where in the rules do they even recognise the "Published method" either. And in fact they allow people to adjust markers to meet the rules. Otherwise they would not include the statement that if the marker fails it can be worked on if time permits.

If it was me I would fix the bounce. But then again I might not have time at that point to do so. I should be allowed to get on the field with it crono'd an alternate way that is safe and meets the rules. Thats all I am saying here.

[hitech]

As CPhillip said, there is nothing in the rules mentioning the published method of chronoing. Therefore, it is irrelevant when discussing the rules. If a tournament wishes to check for "shoot up" during rapid fire then that is what they need to do. If removing the trigger rod is legal (I've seen nothing in the rules suggesting it isn't) then the tournament is obligated to chrono the legal marker. Additional, ALL rules must be applied evenly to ALL participants. To not do so is to give someone an unfair advantage.

[Muzikman]

And not chronoing an RT the correct way is giving someone an unfair advantage. The problem is that if AGD would have never said anything it would be a non issue. But since they came right out and said that there is shoot-up and here is how you adjust the gun so that you do not shoot hot during a game. I feel that it is the responsibility for the tournament promoter to chrono each gun to the Manufactures requested method. You are right, there is nothing in the rules, but that doesn't mean that the right way to chrono should not be followed. This is a bad example for tournaments, but the Palmer Nasty has a certain way you must chrono it, when you buy a Nasty they tell you how to do it. I would expect that if it was a tournament legal gun that the required method for chronoing should be followed. I guess another example is when using some pump guns, to get a correct reading you must hold the pump handle forward. I would expect if someone was chronoing on with a Pump and for some reason you could not hold the pump handle forward during chrono (but could during play) that this gun should not be allowed on the field.

[nippinout]

Cocker Mode

[cphilip]

...if an incorrect method results in a legal safe marker then it's a legal safe marker.

However pitiful it operates. One would think you would not want to resort to that unless it was play or not. But one should be allowed to shoot a marker that is legal by the rules.