Chrono rules debate with Bill Mills...

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by jinxed

But isnt that the core problem?

Some markers shoot up while rapid firing.
Some markers shoot down while rapid firing.

You really can't test them the same if the goal is to make sure the guns highest possible FPS is below the limit.
Sure, you could have an automatic tester, but would that make it easier to cheat? Pros would have special electronics built to fool the tester?

-nick

If the automatic tester pulled the trigger and fired both slow and rapid burts it would be dificult to cheat and it would test FPS under slow and rapid fire.

Now, if there are going to be those that program their own boards to make the marker field adjustable, that's another thing. The only way to stop that is spot checks and absolute enforcement of draconian punishments.

Or, disallow anything other than original manufacturer boards.

[jinxed]

Or, disallow anything other than original manufacturer boards.

Well... the sad thing is that people are always going to cheat, and cheating the chrono is the worst, since it can cause serious injuries.

Before electros, people used everything from rubber bands to sliding foregrips to cheat the chrono.

Modern electros just make the process easier. Banning non-factory boards might help, but alot of factory boards also have issues.

An expensive automatic chrono station might work at the national level, but what about the local level? There are far more local tournaments and they need a reliable, but cheap way to make sure nobody is cheating the chrono.

Nick

[SlartyBartFast]

Originally posted by jinxed

An expensive automatic chrono station might work at the national level, but what about the local level? There are far more local tournaments and they need a reliable, but cheap way to make sure nobody is cheating the chrono.

Nick

When you look at the cost of putting together a good tournament level field, an automatic chrono station would probably be the equivalent cost of one inflatable bunker.

I have sketched out my idea and I'm convinced it could be developed for a fair cost. It really just boils down to some software, a radar-cron, and amechanism to hold and fire the markers.

[cledford]

Does anyone even KNOW the shoot-up of the RT?!? We're sitting here debating something that hasn't even been shown to exist - let me explain...

I have heard (as has everyone else) since the emergence of the RT valve that it had "shoot-up" and could possibly run hot if not chronoed using the AGD specified procedure. I use the procedure and ReTro, Emag and Xvalve all show typically a 18-22fps difference between a single pull and the pull/hold/release-pull-quick method. That having been said, using a computer chrono (Millennium CED), that can record shot strings in excess of 14bps, I can't find any "real" shoot-up over 2-4fps (at most) during rapid fire. This is using the Emag in full-auto (9bps), bouncing mode (???bps) and as fast as I can wail on the trigger. Now, that leaves lots of room for variables, how fast I can pull, the difference between 9 (or unknown) bps and 20bps that some people claim to be able to hit, but not that much. Furthermore in April Tom showed us the gun dyno. When looking at the recharge rate of the RT you can sometimes see the air chamber pressure spike slightly over the previous shots, which would indicate a slightly higher FPS, BUT the peak is not THAT high (enough to change over a couple of FPS) and it begins to diminish immediately, often leaving the pressure back where it should of been prior to the next shot be fired. This was while shooting at a fairly rapid clip. Anyhow, my point is that the "shoot-up" may not be as significant as it seems.

On to the issue, if the rules don't specify "special" or manufacturer suggested procedures - then they don't apply. The rules maker's over sight (although possibly short lived) is not our problem. In the big picture I think we should determine how much shoot up is occurring before this goes forward.

What strikes me as funny about all of this is that it generally stems from the whole bouncing debate brought into tourney ball by the Ecockers and the Timmys (WAS boards). I'm not counting the Tippmanns because from what I hear they are not present in the tourney scene. The laugh is that all this attention is be focused on the few mags out there and yet the other guns are 1) in much greater presence, and 2) have a worse problem. This is all on top of the fact that even if your marker only shoots 10bps, over shooting by the gun's user is rampant - and nothing is being done about that.

-Calvin

[JT2002]

wow, after reading this whole thread, im not too sure about getting an emag, or xmag anymore, especially since i want to play super 7 this august

[athomas]

All the top end guns have some quirks that can be exploited. If it is electronic then it can be exploited.

The emags need to have a switch that allows the electronics to be turned off when the gun is in manual mode. That will help ease some of the confusion. The ULE trigger will ease the reactive trigger issue. I've never seen the HES cause issues like the static from a hard switch can cause.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by athomas
All the top end guns have some quirks that can be exploited. If it is electronic then it can be exploited.

The emags need to have a switch that allows the electronics to be turned off when the gun is in manual mode. That will help ease some of the confusion. The ULE trigger will ease the reactive trigger issue. I've never seen the HES cause issues like the static from a hard switch can cause.

The issue started in this thread is how to lock it into E mode... not out of E mode. And why they would insist on a trigger rod being in there and why they would insist it be crono'd that way. I feel they should not have and could not have under the rules. Calvin is in agreement with my thoughts pretty much in his post. However I cannot tell him the shoot up numbers he asked for other than to tell you what I observed on my few emags. And his guesstimate is about what I saw too. Its not as significant on the ones I tried as people have tried to say. 20 or so psi is about the highest range I saw. And more times less. But we need to do more data gathering to see if there is some odd readings to that before we can conlude anything. Its not the best way to do it but its a way. And a legal way as far as I am concerned.

Now this debate is now going on at the top of the page under Toms post about crono rules and a meeting on Friday about all this. And so lets close this one and continue it up there.