Chrono rules debate with Bill Mills...

[G-Rock]

Originally posted by manike
I run my X-mag at about 650 psi input and if you hold the trigger down before firing it actually shows a slightly lower fps than just pulling it in electro. In general though with my gun it doesn't seem to make much difference to FPS however you chrono it. :)

Originally posted by pito189
Along with Black and Manike, I run my E-Mag and X-Mag at 650psi, and never have had a problem with shootdown. I can't even come close to making my trigger bounce, even in Hybrid mode.

I do have my X-mag, and my Emag before the X, both at 650 psi...they freaking rock at it. I have never had trigger bounce in any mode till yesterday when I hade to use one of my team mates screw in tank with teh input pressure at 800psi.

My suggestion, if you are going to play serious tourney ball, get an adjustable tank. My WDP AIR, and Pito's Max-Flo do the jobs quite nicely.

Chris Geiger

[hitech]

Is an RT valved marker with a Hyperframe tournament legal? You cannot chrono it using the "correct" RT procedure. It has no trigger rod. It is like an emag without the trigger rod.

[Mook564]

Originally posted by hitech
Is an RT valved marker with a Hyperframe tournament legal? You cannot chrono it using the "correct" RT procedure. It has no trigger rod. It is like an emag without the trigger rod.

I was thinking the same thing.
Now this is the perfect way to try to solve this problem.

[cgrieves]

I have a Hyperframed RT Mag and have had no problems chronographing at any tournament.

However, it does seem a little unfair to single out the RT valved markers for "special" chronographing procedure. As has been mentioned, any marker, particularly electropneumatic markers can be programmed or modified to fire at higher velocities with increasing rate of fire. If the special procedure for 'mags is being followed, whether enforced by rules or not, then there must be equivalent procedures set up for testing valve dwell and timing setting on all markers. This is clearly not feasible, so we must bring the situation back to reality, so here is my opinion:

If there is a real safety issue with shootup under rapid fire, then the rationale that chronographs with rapid fire measurement are "too specialised and expensive" doesn't wash with me. If there's a safety issue with shootup, then it is essential that we chronograph markers at increased fire rates. The cost of obtaining such chronographs must be met, rather than singling out guns with a certain reputation for shootup under certain conditions. True safety issues transcend any considerations of cost.

Alternatively, organisers could go back to sensible, common-sense methods of chronographing markers.

[Muzikman]

Problem is that no other company is admitting to the shootup problem, and from what Bill is saying, the chrono's they are using in the XNL can detect shootup and that they really are not finding guns that this happens. The problem is that the RT is known and the manufacture admits that this happens. Becuase of that, I think it is only right to make sure that the correct proceedure is followed. Again, if another gun is found to have this problem, they I would expect that gun to go through the same scrutiny.

[hitech]

But then you are applying the rules differently to different players. Just because they haven't found any unmodified markers that have shootup doesn't mean that they do not. Markers that use a "popet" valve operated by an electronic solenoid have a high potential for tampering. If your going to check for shootup, shouldn't all markers be checked? If an RT valved marker cannot follow the "correct" procedure outlined by AGD (i.e. an RT with a hyperframe) is it not legal? If it is, why isn't an emag without the trigger rod?

Additionally, as I understand it the RT valve does not always shootup. It does so to varing degrees depending on input pressure. At low enough input pressures it doesn't.

[GT]

as with most debates lets look at the big picture.

300fps is found to have a reasonable level or risk in regards to body and equipment impacts, less post BE revys :). In any case lets quantify the level of "shootup"

take home message is are we talking about 5fps increase or 50?
Take that finite number subtract from 300 and you now have a chrono limit for retro's.

Or, I am really thinking about makeing a sleeper valve just to avoid prosacution(sp, real bad sp)

jb

[GT]

Originally posted by gtrsi
as with most debates lets look at the big picture.

300fps is found to have a reasonable level or risk in regards to body and equipment impacts, less post BE revys :). In any case lets quantify the level of "shootup"

take home message is are we talking about 5fps increase or 50?
Take that finite number subtract from 300 and you now have a chrono limit for retro's.

Or, I am really thinking about makeing a sleeper valve just to avoid prosacution(sp, real bad sp)

jb

bump this up, I would like an answer please and from one of the AGD folks or the engineering guys.

jb

[hitech]

Originally posted by gtrsi
Are we talking about 5fps increase or 50?

I don't know. I believe that it depends. I'll try mine out this weekend and post the results here.

[AlabamaMan]

Two weekends ago i was playing in a tounament. I chronod onto the field just firing in E mode. Speed was right around 280 fps. During the course of the game I shot, four 160 round pods, and most of my hopper. When I came to chrono off the field my three shots went 323, 317, 329. Cost my team 44 points for a hot gun. In the end that took us from fourth place to sixth. From now on I think I will be useing the RT chrono proceedure.

[GT]

Originally posted by AlabamaMan
right around 280 fps. 323, 317, 329.

You are sure this is souly atributed to the rt? that is velocity fluctions of 43fps onthe low end and 49fps on the high.

The scary part is that would make an RT valved gun very inconsistant.

hmmm.....
maybe I shouldnt have ordered that x valve.

jb

[cgrieves]

Did you chrono under rapid fir? If not, that is almost certainly a worn or contaminated regulator seal causing your velocity to rise. I have severe doubts that even an overpressured RT valve would shoot-up to that extent even under the fastest fire rate possible.

Besides, in that situation I would have called myself out of the game, it's easy to feel when a marker is firing over 320 fps.

[AlabamaMan]

I did chrono after takeing 20 or so clearing shots. But what we think happened is that my gun was more or less cold, before the game. Then during the game i was ripping on it the whole time, which heated up the valve. Thus causeing the drastic change in velocity.

Although i cannot blame the whole thing on the way i chrono'd. But if i had done it the way AGD says to i definatly would have known to turn it down.

Just like you said Gtrsi is it 5fps, or 50?

In my case it may have been 50.

[Bad Dave]

Alabama man, what input pressure were you running?

Is the condition of the on/off also relevant in this? ie greater shoot-up with a smaller than stock on/off pin.

As the X-mag and E-mag are on the rise again this is an important issue. Some have mentioned that similar results can be achieved via altering dwell times which comes down to electronic cheating which I think is quite rare.

[jinxed]

However, it does seem a little unfair to single out the RT valved markers for "special" chronographing procedure. As has been mentioned, any marker, particularly electropneumatic markers can be programmed or modified to fire at higher velocities with increasing rate of fire

Guns that run on siphon tanks also have a special chrono procedure, so its not a big deal. Its all about safety.

But Timmys that increase dwell during rapid fire, and an adjustable debounce is a seperate issue since this is something hard to test. Consider the Layosa case. He used electronics to make his gun fire illegally, but he wasnt caught until he nearly killed someone.
Unfortunetlly, with bad apples like Layosa, tournaments might have to start severly restricting the way electros are used.

Nick