Chrono rules debate with Bill Mills...

[bunkerhugger]

How about the old PMI 3's on co2? It's been a long time since I used one of these guns or co2, but I remember that with rapid fire the co2 would chill the gun causing it to suck in more co2 in each successive shot, raising the velocity of each shot. This is not safe and if I published research to show this effect would it require the chilling of all PMI 3 type guns before chronoing?

[pbpancho]

I personally know the ref in question here. I'm not saying I agree or don't, but the reason he was chronoing mags like he did is because, he shoots a retro himself, and knows that it has shootup. I don't know if he was told to do that or not, but he is not an un-knowlegable idiot. On my retro, that method can result in 10-20 fps differences, depending on several factors, and the same goes for just about every retro/emag I have chronoed.
Just my .02

[MinimagRockin']

What are the benefits of removing the trigger rod in an emag? Is it really necessary in the first place?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by pbpancho
...On my retro, that method can result in 10-20 fps differences, depending on several factors, and the same goes for just about every retro/emag I have chronoed.
Just my .02

Thats about the number I have seen too. About 20 Max but I have never seen it change more than that... Not in a properly working valve that was done after a good quick heat up.

But everyone knows the "Best" way. Even if its not required by any tournament rules.

[lamby]

pbpancho,

I am prob one of 4 people that supported the judgmnet by the chrono ref even though I was the one that he was messing with. I know about the shootup, I also know that there are different ways to chrono to test for shoot up. but there was a problem when the bounce and "correct chono proceededure" caught me in a catch 22.
I do not use manual mode, or hybrid mode. I use pure electronic (along with my whole team)the removing of the trigger rods was a sugestion from AGD (TK specificly) of how to eliminate ANY chance of being DQed for trigger bounce induced by the RT valve.
The second problem was the use of the hand held which would have made the fire three shots as fast as possible and only read the last one almost impossible. I complied with the ref, and installed all three trigger rods, and turned down the pressure to 550-575psi (to reduce reactivity) and suffered from major shoot down, and miss fireing. All in all it sucked, but it was far from the refs fault.

Philip sees it the other way.. "AGD can do no wrong" so his points are now blown off by me as I KNOW where the problem lies. It is in the marker design, not the enforcement of the rules. The marker was fine before the NPPL/PSP were such sticklers on the bounce issue, but unlike most other makers have not adjusted to the needs of the tourney crowd.

If you ever want to DQ an e/xmag that has the trigger rod in, just put it in "hybrid mode" and pull the trigger slow. It will fire two shots (one in E and then one in manual). This is in direct violation of rule that states "one shot pur trigger pull and release.

This is the reason there is a new angel in my future. I will continue to use my emag in the woods, but NEVER AGAIN when there is money on the line!!!

Also, tell your buddy that was reffing the shocktech field "one of the Mad Cow players says thanks for all the hard work"

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
Philip sees it the other way.. "AGD can do no wrong" so his points are now blown off by me as I KNOW where the problem lies. It is in the marker design, not the enforcement of the rules.

I trust your not talking about my input here. Maybe some other Philip or you just never read anything I said.

I never adressed anything but what I felt is the insistance of some Refs on following a particular marker specific proceedure that is NOT in the rules. And certainly never took a position on trigger bounce other than that is CLEARLY against the rules. Always has been. And I agree totaly with enforcing it. And I DO support a permanent fix for AGD markers. I do however think if the NPPL or any other governing body wishes to make someone crono by a specific marker proceedure they better darn sure start writing them into the rule book. FOR ALL markers and by name. In the mean time I contend that ANY way you can get your marker to legaly shoot coming on and off the field it's allowed.

Thats the extent of my involvment here in this particular thread. I will take offense to anyone implying otherwise. taking the trigger rod out should be allowed as it meets those criteria for a less than optimal quick fix. It's not a permanent solution but it is, in my opinion, within the rules.

[athomas]

There are other markers that admit increased dwell to offset the recharge time in order to keep the velocity consistent. These are stock markers. What happens when you increase the internal flow rate of the gun so that shootdown doesn't occur any more? Now the guns that increase the dwell will cause an increase in velocity at high rates of fire.

I agree with someone in a post above that mentioned there should be chronos available that can measure the velocity of a string of shots in rapid succession, even if it really only gets the last shot. This is only real method of combating this shootup problem.

To combate bounce problems in emags, we have to keep the pressure low until the ULE triggers come out. The two shots per pull can be a problem if the trigger is not adjusted properly. It is very dependent on the rate of pull and the distance between fire points. This too can be adjusted quite successfully.

[GT]

Maybe I do not understand my mag that well but....

Is it the heating of compressed gas that causes the "shoot up"? If so then the retro/e/x are not the only gun that does this. Which would also mean that other guns, when heated using compressed gas, do this.

[cphilip]

The Retro Valved Mag recharges its chamber so much faster than any other marker it's more suseptable to shoot up under high rates of fire. It actualy recharges to a higher PSI when hot. So this can be an issue more often on the Mag with this dumping of full tank pressure so quickly into the air chamber. Thats how it does it. It takes a short burst of full tank pressure and squirts it into the air chamber. This also pushes the trigger forward as well.

As has been noted it can be done other ways with dwell times and such to counteract drop off in those markers. In the mag drop off is not a concern when the tank recharge rate is still way up there. But as he experienced it can be a real problem if the tank pressure is set way low. So there is a point you do not want to cross with tank input pressure. Or you going to get terrible shoot down especialy if the valve has sat and cooled a few minutes before you take that next shot. The air contracts as it cools and the psi in the air chamber drops accordingly. And for that shot it will be even lower if it cools off than were you set it hot rapid fire. So it works both ways. Shoot up if very fast firing and shoot down if very slow and cold. So its in this optimal tank pressure range where you do not want "bounce" to occur or your subject to this rule enforcement. And that optimal range is like 700 - 750 or so and up.

[SlartyBartFast]

I've said it before in other threads, but I think it's worth repeating here.

The ONLY way to solve the chrono procedure debate is to have an automatic chrono station that test ALL markers in EXACTLY the same manner.

Even the RT chrono procedure when followed isn't fair or consistant. The procedure as is requires the tester to hold the trigger then fire as fast as possible. That speed will be different from tester to tester and from shot to shot with the same tester.

With an automatic tester/jig, shots could be electronically controlled and consistent parameters could be set for judging fps, trigger bounce, and single pull/single shot.

[jinxed]

The ONLY way to solve the chrono procedure debate is to have an automatic chrono station that test ALL markers in EXACTLY the same manner.

But isnt that the core problem?

Some markers shoot up while rapid firing.
Some markers shoot down while rapid firing.

You really can't test them the same if the goal is to make sure the guns highest possible FPS is below the limit.
Sure, you could have an automatic tester, but would that make it easier to cheat? Pros would have special electronics built to fool the tester?

-nick

[sneakyhacker420]

... how did chris lasoya almost kill someone?

[lamby]

cphilip,

I am sorry if what I said came accross as a personal attack. Maybe it was was, but it was most definately not called for. I appoligize to you and the rest of AO for crossing the line.

That being said, you have bashed me for the way that I adjusted my marker, and the ref for enforcing the rules. You in the past was taking the stance that the bounce issue is a benifit of the RT, not a problem. Again maybe in the past that was true. now it is a problem (at least in the eyes of the controlling body of tournament paintball.

I have to say, your last post was very nice and informative, thank you. I feel that now you understand why I was/am so upset with AGD.

I just want my emag to work according to the laws laid down by the NPPL/PSP WITHOUT cheating (lovering the max bps, then boosting it when you walk on the field, or programming my own PCB) Tom and his crew have (in my eyes at least) an obligation to us tourney guys that dropped alot of money for their, then state of the art, products. We want our markers fixed so that all promises AGD made in marketing are met, and the marker is still tourney legal. We need a new On/Off assy made to make our guns fire manual or electric and eliminate the god forsaken reactivity.

[Koosh]

I think this whole problem can be solved if you just made the Manual selector switch removeable... Have it in manual to chrono right, then switch to electronic and remove the selector and hand it to the ref... problem solved?

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
cphilip,

That being said, you have bashed me for the way that I adjusted my marker, and the ref for enforcing the rules. You in the past was taking the stance that the bounce issue is a benifit of the RT, not a problem. Again maybe in the past that was true. now it is a problem (at least in the eyes of the controlling body of tournament paintball.

I have to say, your last post was very nice and informative, thank you. I feel that now you understand why I was/am so upset with AGD.

You again must be thinking of someone else. I never bashed you in fact I defended you and said it wasn't your fault. Almost in those words exactly. Somewhere in the first of this thread when someone ELSE said you were blaming AGD for something that was your fault. You can go back and see. And I NEVER have said bounce was a benefit and desirable. I have ALWAYS considered excessive bounce to be a problem. I even described Marks interpretation at WC and how I thought it was correct. And that allowed the trigger rod to be taken out. I think you reading someone elses posts as if they were mine. I did call the refs decission not to let you try and crono without the trigger rod wrong and pointed out the rules do not require a trigger rod nor any specific crono "proceedure" for a specific marker. Thats what my position has been and still is. I still feel thats correct interpretations. I think maybe your confusing some other peoples comments with mine. Even though that thread was closed the comments still exist and I suggest you take another look. But its cool... I just wanted to set the record straight on that.