AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

[FooTemps]

Dude... no way... lol

1. AGD came out with level 10 for a reason. It wasn't to say "our bolts move too fast". It was to make mags more forgiving during short strokes and misfeeds. Cockers, imps, timmies, angels, even matricies have anti chop measures. It could be lower bolt pressure, ace, cops, etc. Any marker can suffer from chopping due to slow feeding and ball bobble. The mag didn't have any solutions to that so AGD came out with the best solution possible, LEVEL 10.

2. Going from mag to cocker threads was a good choice. Do you know why? AGD couldn't get mag threads made by many manufacturers. Also, threaded barrels were the only way to get xmag modular breeches to work. The best thread choice is naturally autococker due to their popularit. It's meerly a marketing to supply what is most popular.

3. The xvavle has as much reactivity as an rt, retro, or emag valve. It's just all aluminum. Either the mag's reactivity was lowered or it had its input pressure dialed down.

4. Okay, the "if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker," is really really dumb. Do you know why? There are tons of true markers. They are:
Talons
Spyders
Piranhas
Other spyder clones
Mags
Cockers
Bushies
Impies
Timmies
Tippies
Angels
Custom guns
Defiants
Phantoms
Nelsplat 007s
VM68s
and tons more

Do you get my point? They are all truely markers. They fire paint and run off air and have other features to classify themselves as true paintball markers. If you're trying to say cockers are the best. Then why don't you say "I think cockers are the best", and save the lame lines for something else. Seriously, that was horrible. lol

[AutomagRT1483]

Cockers...bah! Granted they do look good on the outside. If there was "only one true" marker, then tell me why I own 13 "true" markers? I do own a cocker, but it only works when it wants to work. Frankly, I'm begining to believe that it's possessed by the devil but thats my opinion of my cocker. My mags work all the time. Let me guess you had one bad experience with a mag so your going to flame it and AGD now. Get a grip on reality here...times change, markets change, markers change...end of story. Get over it already. For anyone who thinks I'm an AGD brown-noser(showed up in the PSP Chicago thread Lamby started), well guess what...I AM! I never flame the companies that build the markers that I own, cuz I realize that all the problems that happen with them are the DIRECT result of my using them.

BTW...Anybody know how or where I can get a pump kit for my cocker???

[BlackVCG]

ouch. trust that i didn't intent to compromise my character by expressing my opinions.

many apologies for saying something that urked you.

honestly man, thats pretty shallow to lose respect for someone for something so insignifigant

Respect and credibility are two different words.

It's not insignificant when it's directed at the company I work for and support. I don't have a problem with people gripping about AGD at all. Hell, I have plenty of gripes with the way AGD does things. I just have a problem with people making unsubstantiated/arrogant claims to jump on the bandwagon that has developed in light of recent events.

Disclaimer: The aforemenionted statements are not all directed at gam-e. It is my own personal rant relating to the intentions of this thread.

[Doc Nickel]

Re: AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

Okay, you have some valid points. Here's my take on them:

1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong.

At the time, this was the truth. Or the best understanding of the truth.

Back then, some players could whale on a 'Mag with no burps, chops or short strokes, while others would chop and flub every third shot. Often a close look would show the player had over-adjusted the trigger rod, or simply wasn't pulling it fast enough.

So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain[t] too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."

The assumption here is that AGD knew all along what the problem was. This is not the case- keep in mind that up until very recently (and that means through about a decade of Automag production) it was assumed the "powerfeed" redirected blowback gasses- IE, the bolt would open before the ball left the barrel, allowing a burp of gas to come back up the feed port.

This does, actually, happen, but is so miniscule an effect as to be easily ignored. Rather, what was later learned was that the bolt moved so fast it literally "smacked" the underside of the second ball in line.

Back in the old days of thick-shell paints like ZAP, Pro-Ball and Nelson Challenger, all the 'smack' did was just toss the ball back up the feed port. The early fix was to make the feed neck over twice as long as normal, so the ball stack would push down harder. The later innovation was the so-called powerfeed.

Tom's actual analysis (still somewhat unique in our industry) finally showed the true cause- the "smacked" ball got cracked, then when fired would blow out. Not a "chop" per se`, but blowout.

Once that was known, development could focus on solving the problem- not "band-aiding" it with things like powerfeeds.

This became even more important with the development in the past few years of the ultra-thin-shell "tourney paints". Players demanded a paint that wouldn't bounce, so shells got thinner. Some paints will crack if you look at 'em crosseyed, and they simply couldn't survive the Automag's high bolt speed. This was, in my opinion, a large part of the dropoff in 'Mag popularity over the past three or four years.

2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!"

Again, keep in mind when the 'Mag hit the market. Back in 1990, just having a removable barrel was an innovative option! There was no such thing as a near-standard thread like the 'Cocker. Each semi had it's own threads (VM, Illustrator, Pro-Am) or even no threads at all (68 Special.)

Being able to remove the barrel to clean it was a huge advantage at times. Point in fact, the Smart Parts "spiral ported rifling" was actually originally developed to make a barrel "self squeegeeing"- if you broke a ball, the next shot down the barrel would "squeege" the paint into the holes and air pressure would blow it out.

Well, we all know how well that worked, and the Patent on the holes (note how very early AA barrels had the holes very close together) tells a different story.

But anyway, if a removable barrel was good, a very quickly removable barrel was even better. And again, there was no "standard" to fit to the gun, so why not go with the twist-lock?

Over the years the WGP thread has evolved into the de-facto standard barrel thread, but by that time there were thousands and thousands of 'Mags out there, and most manufacturers were making barrels to fit, so there was no real reason to change.

Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?

Only with the complete redesigns of the gun- IE, the SFL/X-Mag bodies, was the thread used- By this point, of course, the WGP thread is now the unofficial standard. The ULEs are an offshoot of the Sluggos, which was itself an answer to the long-asked-for 'Mag body that can be milled and annoed "just like all those 'Cockers".

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

Anyone who flames for this is a boor. However, it's an opinion, not a fact.

There are those that like 'Cockers. There are those that like 'Mags. One team is playing top-level NPPL with E-frame Spyders.

You like 'Mags? That's fine. You like Angels? That's fine too. Have a thing for Shockers? No problem. Novas your toy? More power to ya.

The secret here is that, for 99% of us, the gun right out of the box will shoot just as fast as you can pull the trigger, the ball will go just as far, and just as accurately, as any other marker on the field.

The only real difference these days is ergonomics and cosmetics. Like the new "dust" finishes? Fine. I don't- they look "unfinished" and they hold dirt and fingerprints something fierce. But that's my opinion. It's no different than some people not liking blue, or not liking purple, or whatever.

Doc.

[Gadget]

Re: AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."

Learning the trigger to prevent short stroking is still an issue - the L10 helps people who have problems with this by bouncing off half-fed balls.

2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?

Probably because WE (the customer base) asked for it. The days when you could guarantee that every brand of barrel would also come in twistlock are long gone - what better way to increase the selection of barrels available to us than to opt for the most popular threading around? Personally I still love my twistlock :)

3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.

Anything that stops RT valves from runaway is a good thing in my book - tourny judges are getting very picky about what they'll allow on the fields these days and that's one less thing for me to worry about.....but if you don't want to lose the reactivity, save some money and don't buy the ULE trigger....it's not mandatory.

guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.

Cockers are great markers sure, but by no means 'the only choice' (I'm guessing that you now own a cocker?). I've enjoyed playing with a racegun cocker and the E-blades seem nice too....but personally I'd rather run an Angel, Matrix, Impulse or Timmy than a cocker - more elegant design and faster cycling.

But above all of those, when I decided to buy a new electro a month ago, I still chose to spend my money on an E-Mag when I could have opted for anything else (X-Mag included) - why?.....because I like over-engineered design, I like stainless steel last-for-a-lifetime bodies and I'm just comforatable with mags.

If you're happier running a cocker, that's good too - hope it works well for ya! :)

[MarkM]

Without going into the political flaming that is happening in this thread think about this "IF" the autococker hadn't been as popular as it was and has become then what barrel thread would be on the E-mag ? Had Tom had gone with a numbers sold list then perhaps all of you E-mag owners are lucky that the barrels weren't Spyder threaded. Think what would happen if the autococker became consigned to the scrapheap and was a museum piece, which barrel thread would the "new" AGD marker become...?? Angel threads? Shocker threads?

[JEDI]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
Okay, please for the love of God explain to me how a gun that was converted from a pump and uses 60's technology is "The Only Choice".

You had credibility with me until you made that statement. I mean, I like Cockers and how they shoot and all, but they have to be one of the pathetically engineered guns on the market.

Man, you guys crack me up. One ignorant statement after another. He says, "They're the only true marker..." Yeah, what ever... Then you come on and say they're pathetically engineered. You're both rediculous. You guys dont realize that we're such a good forum here, but you're infantile perspective on other guns, makes us look very incredibly stupid.

By the way... cockers are fantastic performers. If you've never had luck with one, maybe its you.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by MarkM
Think what would happen if the autococker became consigned to the scrapheap and was a museum piece, which barrel thread would the "new" AGD marker become...?? Angel threads? Shocker threads?

As a company they don't seem to make decisions which they know will hurt their customers just for political reasons - so if the cocker were out of the picture I'd have thought AGD would go with Angel threads. There's probably more Spyders out there, but I wouldn't like to bet that they've got as wide a selection of barrels available for them as Angels.

Would be nice to see all of the different 'standards' slowly converge so that you could buy a barrel without worrying about what threads its got. :)

[GT]

1. It was rare for me to ever chop with my lvl7 bolt. I still do not understand the need for the lvl10 on non RT valved guns.

2. Twista lock sux. You can hardly find them.

3. I was messing with a budies x last weekend and i could feel the reactiveness. all you have to do is just put a little weight on the trigger and bam 2 or 3 out the barrel.

futhermore,
I bought the x for a few reasons weight, semi reacative, lighter pull, and lvlx. if that aint worth 325 bucks I dont know what is. Infact how much is that eclipse eblade frame? 400 bucks for no chops and a lighter trigger pull, and your internals may or may not be up to the task. hmm.. cockers are nice but far short of teh ultimate gun.

conclusion,
I am building a ULE mag. I am hoping that it will run around and the same weight as a spyder. How many cockers do you know that can shot 26bps+ and weigh in around a spyder?

jb

[DWill]

Pulls out a flame thrower and flames gam-e to a crisp ...jk. I'm sorry that AGD is not working for you anymore, and if a cocker feels like a better gun and keeps you playing paintball than by all means stick with the cocker.

[FalconGuy016]

You seemed to be completely owned on nearly everything you said Game-e, but thats not the real point anyways. The real point is that you like an autococker more now, and no one is going to change that, and thats fine.

[BlackVCG]

Yeah, I'm biased against other guns... That's why I own more Tippmanns than AGD guns.

Stop taking my words out of context. I said it was pathetic engineering, because from an engineering standpoint, I believe it is. We're dealing with a gun that was originally a pump gun and after some various people tinkering with it and using "off the shelf" pneumatic parts, they converted it to semi-auto. That really isn't engineering. Take a Cocker to a mechanical/pneumatic engineer and they'll probably ask you why the gun has a back-block and why are all of the pneumatics sticking out the front. Things like that don't make any sense from an engineering standpoint, but they do when you realize it was a conversion.

But yeah, I'm close minded towards other guns. That's why I'm going to buy an Angel Speed when I can and that's why I read the tech threads in forums for other guns to learn more about them.

[Jerhew]

oh ya
no one mentioned this but twist lock was used because it wouldve been too difficult to tap threads into the hard stainless mag bodies...

[TigerMan]

So the Autococker is the best available marker you say? How long will this last, 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 months? Everybody changes. We all go to "Oh man this is the greatest marker I've owned, I'm set with this," to 3 weeks later having a new marker. Not saying you do this, but that's something that makes me feel all warm and tingly inside is hearing people give advice on a marker they own, saying it's the best super doo dah thing, then a week later owning something else. So it wasn't the greatest then? You go from one week to saying you own the best thing on the planet, to one week later going, "ehh, I always thought that was better so I hopped up and sold it." The truth is their is no greatest marker available, their is just the greatest marker available right now. Something better always comes along.

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by Jerhew
oh ya
no one mentioned this but twist lock was used because it wouldve been too difficult to tap threads into the hard stainless mag bodies...

-Actually, it's my understanding that threaded barrels were never considered. The design of the 'Mag was essentially always based on a stainless tube (at least, for all the works after the blowback "Panther" prototypes of way back when) and that meant that, to make threads, a breech insert with threads would have to be soldered/brazed in place.

In fact, the very earliest 'Mags used a combination; the breech- where the ball falls through the barrel from the side today- was fixed in the body, and only the front half "twist-locked" into place.

Check out the very first review that APG did of the 'Mag back in '90 or so- if you look close, you'll see the barrel has a short lock groove (about 1/4" from the end of the barrel) and no through-breech hole.

The design was changed almost immediately to the configuration we know now- but the bottom line is threaded barrels were never given any real thought even from day one.

Doc.