AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

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  • Webmaster
    Former Moderator

    • Oct 2000
    • 1765

    #46
    I havent read everyones responce - and I bet that some of this has been covered - but I want to give my responce:


    1) The chopping issue needs to be addressed for what time period you are talking about. From 1990 to around 2000 if you chopped in a mag it was most likely due to a short stroke, missfeed, or your trigger rod was out of wack from fiddling with it. When these complaints continued past 2000, it was still thought that it was people shortstoking etc. It wasnt until recently that more and more brittle paint became available on the market. And whats more - guns that could actually SHOOT it. Brittle paint existed back in the day - but it was considered CRAP. Bad paint it was! It wasnt until recently that brittle paint became desirable. At first AGD tried to help monitor the brittleness of paint (with perhaps a paintball humidor in the future) but later they figured out WHY brittle paint broke in thier guns. And it was the bolt speed.

    So... if you use decent paint and break, its most likely user error. If it is brittle paint its the mag breaking it. So its the same symptom caused by two different problems - and one problem only recently cropped up.

    2) The reason twist locks cost more was due to the expence to make them. Its just extra steps in the machine shop. But at the time when the mag was made - it was rather revolutionary and a desirable feature. Back in the day everyone made mag barrels and it really wasnt an issue. Heck - cocker barrels actually cost the same at one pooint - because the mag and cocker were the high end guns and people would spend the money. So I guess if Tom had a crystal ball he could see that ultimately 13 YEARS after he designed the automag that he would go to cocker threads then he would have done it. Then again, if he had that kind of power over time and space he wouldnt be running a paintball company.

    3) Dunno about this. I shot a whole case at EMR with my Xvalved mag and just loved it. Soooo that maybe ask in the tech forum.


    "guys... i like AGD, im just really confused about recent changes they've made (they should have, and much more COULD HAVE been done long ago) "

    hmm - well why not complain to bud about the autococker?

    He made a TOTAL POS - a real turd for many years. To get a decent working cocker you had to shell out $500 to a custom shop to get it where it would even work reliably. And unlike AGD where they redesigned there working (to RT, to LX) - the 2003 cocker uses the same tech as the 1992 cocker. Same sledge hammer reg. I suppose a newer 3 way/ram - but the old ones were fine if you polished them.

    What I am saying is like with any product there is an evolution and refinment proceses. It change due to chagnes in the sport and the consumers wants and needs. Tom will be the first to say hes been slow to respond to the rapidly changing market (mainly because they dropped out of paintball a few years ago for military projects, and have been playing catch up ever since).

    I think some of your point are valid - but to day "why didnt you do 'x' a long time ago" is kinda silly. It just wasnt thought of then. Im sure any inventor would LOVE to beable to have invented something 5 yrs before they actually did to get ahead of the game. But to do that you would need a time machine....

    maybe thats what Tom should do next.

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    • gam-e
      Who the hell?
      • Jun 2001
      • 1357

      #47
      it is a good idea though right....a time machine :)
      AIM: DionHolm
      ICQ: 112756387
      MSN & Email : [email protected]

      Fantastic Traders: mark_426, Demobilized
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      • Nomad
        Insanity......
        • May 2002
        • 157

        #48
        Yeah, but if Tom made a time machine, he'd just go forward in time, find out who won all the world series in every major sport and then come back and bet on them.

        He'd be a millionare and wouldn't have to stay in the paintball business....

        ~The Wanderer~

        Comment

        • TigerMan
          Meeoooow!
          • Jan 2002
          • 1100

          #49
          Originally posted by Nomad
          Yeah, but if Tom made a time machine, he'd just go forward in time, find out who won all the world series in every major sport and then come back and bet on them.

          He'd be a millionare and wouldn't have to stay in the paintball business....

          Just like in Back to the Future II!!!!
          Silver ULE X Valved Mag
          Spyder AMG Classic
          ------------------------


          Lots FS/FT! Barrels, pack, hopper and more! Click Here!

          Comment

          • Frank (the spank)
            Registered User
            • Apr 2003
            • 375

            #50
            Originally posted by TigerMan


            Just like in Back to the Future II!!!!
            Mmmmmm Elizabeth Shue...

            Although she's kinda skanky.. after all she did Michael J Fox in back to the future 2 and Ralph Machio in Karate Kid, lol
            My cats bum rises when I pet it.

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            • banzaimf
              fat boys don't run
              • Jun 2001
              • 683

              #51
              Originally posted by gam-e
              well, i know that dark cocker and free flows are pretty much identical

              and the low pressure makes the bolt stop on the paint. been around for quite some time.. i can chop pain with just about any gun but not a dark or freeflow. i can run my friends dark with race frame at 15 bps when i walk the trigger and no breaks at all...played that way all day
              LP.... Just a point here, LP helping cockers being easier on paint is all about dropping the recock pressure to LP. ie 30 or 40psi MAX! Well below the "opereating pressure of 150.

              If you have the patience and an adjustable front reg, you can do that with pretty much any cocker.
              minimag #1321

              Xmag #267

              Comment

              • 11_Mile_TMaster
                Registered User
                • Dec 2002
                • 230

                #52
                Re: AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

                Originally posted by gam-e
                1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."
                You know, A lot of it really is short stroking. I had two of my friends shoot my X-Valved mag yesterday, and both of them had a problem with short stroking. The Level 10 kept them in check though.

                Hell, at Global Conquest, I let another AOer shoot my RT Pro/X and took a few shots with his Classic. And sure enough, I short stroked that bad boy. ^_^

                Besides, if they really had a problem with the bolt hitting the paint so hard that they would break when fully in the breech, why would they move from the foamie to the Hardnose bolt?

                My friend had an RT Pro without LX for a year and had almost no Chopping problems to speak of.
                2. We have always had to pay that extra $10 or $20 for the automag barrels. why?-"Because they come off quick!" Now all of a sudden it seems like all of AGD's flashy equipment uses cocker barrels. why now, why not then, why couldn't we have saved that money long ago?
                Numerous reasons. For starters, like others said, at the time, Removable barrels were a new idea, and AGD's design was actually quite the elegant solution. I look at the deisgn of the barrels, and I can't help but appreciate the elegance of easily replacable detents and, yes, the quick operation.

                Other people answered this concern much better than me, such as how actual Threaded barrels allowed for the easy-changing breeches, Less companies are making mag barrels, and lastly, there is the fact that CF and right/left barrels use different millings of barrels.
                3.Today I was very enthusiastic about trying a ULE, lx, xvalve, intellimag. i was thrown for a loop when i tried both the classic and x-valve and realized the reactivness is miniscule, and all it seems to do is lighten the gun and make the trigger pull lighter? what is wrong with the X-valve? that $325 seems like a complete waste of money to me. i didn't get one little 2 shot burst out of it, not one. i always get those or 3 shot bursts with my emag or RT classic.
                I, as mentioned before, have an RT Pro/X (Stock X-Valve), Now mind you, it is stock, so it might be different than added in, but when I was shooting the fellow AOers classic, I could definately 'feel' the difference.

                I can routinely get 5 shot bursts out of my RT Pro.
                like i said, i dont expect answers, and no it wasn't some lemon marker, it was tip top shape, and sadly enough the guy was totally enthralled with it.

                guys, flame me for this if you want, but im forced to say this now. if you want a true marker, there is only one choice--autococker.
                Now, to say an Autococker is the 'only choice' for a true marker, is bullocks, and something that's just... well... dumb. You've got, mags aside; Tippmanns, Spyders, Bushmasters, Angels, Matrices, (Erm, that's the plural of Matrix, right?) Intimidators, Novas, I could go on and on, listing every company but Brass Eagle and ZAP :)
                Automag RT-Pro
                68 Classic
                BE 1999 Rainmaker
                PMI Trracer
                So many guns, So little time.

                Comment

                • tr0n
                  l33b
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 205

                  #53
                  Re: AGD: the good, the bad, and the confusing

                  1. all these years we have been told that the chopping problem was due to us pulling the trigger wrong. "your chopping with that classic because you haven't learned the trigger yet." So now with the release of the level 10 AGD has magically decided that "oh, it wasn't your trigger finger, the bolt was actually hitting the pain too hard causing it to break- give us money for a lx, and we'll fix that marker of yours that is chopping through no fault of your own."


                  Uhh, I think what the lvl10 is for is actually to help the people that havent learned the trigger yet. I cant really think of a good way to say this but yeah... Of course the bolt chops it in half if you dont pull the trigger. Thats what the lvl10 is for. LOL The bolt will stop on the paint which is much more forgiving on a noob at the trigger.
                  Good traders: a_bloomer10, nub, mark_426
                  My feedback

                  Comment

                  • gam-e
                    Who the hell?
                    • Jun 2001
                    • 1357

                    #54
                    *sigh* as if this already hadn't been established.... so unique.
                    AIM: DionHolm
                    ICQ: 112756387
                    MSN & Email : [email protected]

                    Fantastic Traders: mark_426, Demobilized
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                    • cockermongol
                      Registered User
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 227

                      #55
                      Originally posted by gtrsi

                      futhermore,
                      I bought the x for a few reasons weight, semi reacative, lighter pull, and lvlx. if that aint worth 325 bucks I dont know what is. Infact how much is that eclipse eblade frame? 400 bucks for no chops and a lighter trigger pull, and your internals may or may not be up to the task. hmm.. cockers are nice but far short of teh ultimate gun.
                      OK, i've never shot a retro mag, but eblades turn your gun into an electro, plain and simple. It doesn't just "lighten the trigger", it makes it lighter than a mouse click. You obviously don't know much about cockers, because the stock internals are as good as it gets. Only thing better are freeflow internals because they are stainless steel.

                      Comment

                      • Jerhew
                        Riverside Regiment
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 677

                        #56
                        Originally posted by cockermongol


                        OK, i've never shot a retro mag, but eblades turn your gun into an electro, plain and simple. It doesn't just "lighten the trigger", it makes it lighter than a mouse click. You obviously don't know much about cockers, because the stock internals are as good as it gets. Only thing better are freeflow internals because they are stainless steel.
                        actually the ff hammer is tungstun carbide and is the heaviest on the market... thus allowing for the lightest mainspring possible
                        don't correct someone unless you're right yourself
                        TheDuelist "The problem is that Tom has developed the VW Beetle of the paintball industry. It's almost too good to change and far too reliable."

                        Comment

                        • gam-e
                          Who the hell?
                          • Jun 2001
                          • 1357

                          #57
                          oh my god, pinch a loaf already.

                          you were still able to get the gist of his comment even if he said SS instead of "TUNGSTUN CARBIDE"...big whoop got one thing wrong.

                          the fact is, regardless of his slip-up, is that the stock internals are up to the task of withstanding electro frames, he further went on stating that the only thing better are free flow internals because they are SS.

                          dont put two mistakes in the same ballpark...one was just made of blatant subterfuge, the other was a tiny mistake in the materials used to manufacture a product.

                          i think they make luvox for people like this...christ. and lemme add my

                          Dion
                          AIM: DionHolm
                          ICQ: 112756387
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                          • Jerhew
                            Riverside Regiment
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 677

                            #58
                            i was mainly making the point that he was correcting someone when he, himself apparently knows little more about 'cockers than what the kids at his local field tell him

                            "You obviously don't know much about cockers"
                            and the goes on to tell him something inaccurate

                            i just can't stand know-it-alls that don't know it all

                            i can't say what gtrsi meant by what he said and i wasn't defending it anyway...
                            but it seems like just as much of a "tiny mistake" as cockermongols...
                            TheDuelist "The problem is that Tom has developed the VW Beetle of the paintball industry. It's almost too good to change and far too reliable."

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                            • AGD
                              The man from AGD

                              • Oct 2000
                              • 5916

                              #59
                              WOW! What a thread! Only on AO could you get this much coverage of a topic. Generally very inteligent responses is my opinion.

                              And another thing, everyone says that this forum is totally mag centric without differing opinions. I think the quantity of threads like this proves them wrong.

                              Long live AO!!

                              AGD
                              sigpic

                              Comment

                              • AutomagRT1483
                                AutoWangRT1483
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 2987

                                #60
                                Originally posted by AGD
                                WOW! What a thread! Only on AO could you get this much coverage of a topic. Generally very inteligent responses is my opinion.

                                And another thing, everyone says that this forum is totally mag centric without differing opinions. I think the quantity of threads like this proves them wrong.

                                Long live AO!!

                                AGD
                                Yeah Buddy!! Woot Woot!

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