Bill Cookstone and the Trigger Bounce Issue

[shartley]

Originally posted by luke
um, dad can I have $20. (big smile) I looove you daddy.

LOL

[cphilip]

Well I think the important thing to take away from this is that a lot of markers can be forced or fiddled with to make them fire more than one shot per pull. And up until recently more local refs were TRYING more to get Mags to do it because of rumors and the knowledge that many people try and fiddle with them and make them do it. But what is happeing in the last year is that people are realizing from the top that these others exist and more and more its trickling down to the local refs. But it takes time. Until its common knowledge you can expect local refs to sometimes be a little bit prejudiced. Until you destroy a myth. The one thing that we need to NOT do is perpetuate that myth by TRYING to make them bounce.

I think the rule that Chris Reahl put forth sounds logical and sounds sort of like what Tom says that Bill Cookston is already relating to his people to be done. And its in the spirit of what the rules intended. For instance a marker that can be forced to fail one time out of three through carefull bench manipulations is going to be VERY difficult to duplicate that malfunction in the field. Almost impossible to do realy. It's not something that is liable to be utilized on the field nor cause a problem on the field. But ALL markers need to be held to the same standard. And not just AGD markers. And many others of them are failing for one reason or the other lately because the word is slowly getting out that they exist.

So I guess the point to AGD marker users is this... Be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem.

[lamby]

cphilip,

well said. I hope the section of the rule that states "one slow trigger pull not to exceed 2 seconds" does not hit the slow pull bouble fire problem that the emags can exibit in hybrid mode. Due to fireing electro, then mechanical.

Tom,
can we get a rule revision that allows us to remove the trigger rods in our e/xmags? This will make life easier for us to eliminate possible problems. No other marker has dual fireing modes, so why are we forced to have them in?

[raehl]

It would be your responsibility to configure the E-Mag so that you did not have two firing points. Two shots per one pull is clearly illegal.


- Chris

[lamby]

raehl,

In your series is it legal to remove the trigger rods in the emags to eliminate this problem, and eliminate the RT effect? I had an issue with the PSP about this very thing.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
Tom,
can we get a rule revision that allows us to remove the trigger rods in our e/xmags? This will make life easier for us to eliminate possible problems. No other marker has dual fireing modes, so why are we forced to have them in?

Good point! But I do not think it takes a "rules revision" as such. I think its already within the rules. But I know some disagree with me on that but thats the way I see it. What I think we need is more of a clear statement of interpretation that making us go with both modes is above and beyond the existing rules and above and beyond the "Intent" of the rules. And I would like to see all these "Interpretations" in writting. Maybe thats realy what you were meaning. I just wanted to clarify that. There are many other interpretations of rules that have never been written into the rules. And those should be published. There should be no reason for people to not understand the rules and how they are going to be applied. And clarifictions should be public so that in a dispute one can point to those. And so local refs can use those to make judgement calls if they chose to use those rules. Why make someone hunt for them? It makes no sense.

I mean in this case we have no problem with them checking before and after the fact and seeing if we are not hot then. That's expected. In fact encouraged for the safety of the sport. And if we are hot then thats our problem to deal with if we cannot make the Marker behave. We pay the penalty for that. We will have to find another way if thats excessive. But forceing one particular special crono method or the other is not within the rules as it is. And thats what some are indeed doing. I have no idea if we can make them behave as a whole. Some will and some won't maybe? But we should at least be allowed to try and find ways to make them legal that fall within the rules. It's already within the rules to do so. Its just some people are interpreting that differently. Someone who knows about Mags is liable to be TOO smart on proper manufacturers recomendations and not be willing to think outside the box as to what the rules say and realy mean. It's all in the INTENT of the rules. Not the "Proper Procedure Recommended bla bla bla". If they pass... no matter what... they pass. Thats the rule.

All in my opinion of course.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by lamby
raehl,

In your series is it legal to remove the trigger rods in the emags to eliminate this problem, and eliminate the RT effect? I had an issue with the PSP about this very thing.

I don't see ANYTHING in ANYONES rules that prohibits it. One pull = one shot and Velocity on and off the field. That it. And thats how it should be.

Thats my real beef with what happened to you Lamby. It is, in my opinion, wrong to make you have a trigger rod. Its right to expect you to fit both of the categories of Shot number and Velocity. Thats all. Thats my story and I stickin to it!

[lamby]

I want all this end!!!! I would love to use my emag for tourneys. I want all these rules cleaned up so I can have one less issue to stress out about. If they don't clean this up, I HAVE to buy a new marker (which sucks)

I hope Jim, Tom, and the rest of the owners come up with something at their meeting today

[cphilip]

Yea... I think it will all some to a head Friday. But getting the word down the ladder is the problem. We will have to be Jesuits and spread the word I am afraid. But something in writing is what I hope we can get out of it so we have something to carry around and show.

And of course we have some issues to work on ourselves. Mininizing bounce and HES "idiocy". But I think those can be easily solved.

[JT2002]

today? um, i think you mean tomorrow, its thursday bro

*EDIT* Phil beat me to it!

[lamby]

Originally posted by JT2002
today? um, i think you mean tomorrow, its thursday bro

Dude, I am third shifter, I never know what day it is !!! All I know is tonight is my Friday. Yippie!!!!!

[JT2002]

ok. well fyi, from where you are, the lunie bin is 3 blocks to teh east and 1 block south. Have Fun!

[.gigante.]

Originally posted by cphilip

And of course we have some issues to work on ourselves. Mininizing bounce and HES "idiocy". But I think those can be easily solved.

what is this HES idiocy you speak of. i know what a hall effect is, but could you explain the idiocy for me?

[cphilip]

I was talking about the occasional marker that the HES gets triggered off when pulled back and it gets "confused" and fires more than once. Either from setting it wrong or a quirks of electrical interference. We been talking about that for a few days and a couple people have seen this. Many have not but....

[cphilip]

When you get a chance Tom can we get an update on what happened Friday at the meeting?